Frederick II vs Wellington (Round 2)

[Post Captain]

Originally Posted by daemonofdecay

Again its a case of scale: Fredrick was able to forge an empire, while Wellington won a few battles.

Lots of germans in these things, doncha think?

Wellington helped to trash one empire and helped to firmly establish another.

[vicfirth311]

This one is a toughey, I voted for Wellington

[Cap. Teancum]

27-26 with my vote for Wellington. This is proving to be a much closer fight than I would imagine.
I'm not sure if there isn't some "napolionist" compensating Waterloo with this voting.

[Half Pint John]

Originally Posted by Cap. Teancum

27-26 with my vote for Wellington. This is proving to be a much closer fight than I would imagine.
I'm not sure if there isn't some "napolionist" compensating Waterloo with this voting.

That and a lack of knowledge. Luis you being a history teach I'm surprised with your pick

HP

[Marshal Murat]

Napoleon chose his corp commanders, thus must take responsibility for their failures

So Frederick can take responsibility for Seydilitz. Fine with me.

Frederick II put Prussia on the map. He defeated four separate foes, often outnumbered (Battle of Leuthen, Battle of Rossbach, Battle of Lobositz)

He fought an even sized force, and lost only 4,000 men. Battle of Hohenfriedberg

Battle of Torgau
Frederick II turned a costly defeat into a costly victory, but a victory none-the-less.

Despite terrible defeats, Frederick kept bouncing back.
Battle of Kolin
A terrible defeat, Frederick II returned to victory at Rossbach.

Battle of Zorndorf
Frederick II's bloody victory over the Russians, again the smaller force, his troops ran out of powder, sending many to engage in hand-to-hand. Frederick II prevented the Russians from uniting with the Austrians, saving Prussia again.

12. During the Seven Years' War, Prussia found herself surrounded by enemies: Saxony and Austria to the south, France to the west, Sweden to the north, and Russia to the east. Frederick II overcame his difficult position by making full use of the advantages which fighting on "interior lines" offers to a highly mobile army led by a commander who does not shrink from taking the initiative: Without waiting to declare war he seized Saxony in 1756. His invasion of Bohemia in 1757 was checked by the Austrians at KOLIN (see note 14) and he had to fall back upon his own terri- tories. From there he advanced with lightning speed, first into Central Germany to defeat the French at ROSSBACH (see note 5) and from there back to Silesia, where he beat the Austrians at LEUTHEN (see note 1). On August 25, 1758 he defeated the Russians near ZORNDORF. Eventually, however, the numerical superiority of his opponents became too great and Frederick was forced to limit himself to a more defensive strategy, while his tactics remained offensive.

Clausewitz Writing

Do I hear another Prussian victory?
Battle of Burkersdorf
Frederick finally gets the upper-hand, troop-wise, and prevents the Russians from withdrawing. Victory to the Germans.

Battle of Liegnitz in Depth (PDF)


Frederick II was able to do alot with little, he returned from defeat, he got lucky, and he won. He put Prussia on the political map, and they stayed there until the Prussians united with the rest of the German princes into Germany.

I vote for Frederick II.

[vicfirth311]

Wow I know nothing of the 7 Years War, at least nothing about its European theatre. I have a gap in my military knowledge between the 1600 and 1760

So I am looking for good intro/summary/comprehensive books on:

Italian Wars
French Wars of Religion
Dutch Revolt
The 30 Years War
English Civil War
War of Devolution
Great Turkish War
Great Northern War
War of Spanish Succession
War of the Quadruple Alliance
War of the Austrian Succession
7 Years War (European Theatre)

I have alot of reading to do, I know the gist of some of them, succession disputes, religious disputes, power disputes or all of the above. Ijust want to know more and need to know more since I am missing 180 years of military history.

Just PM me if you have any suggestions, thanks.

[Post Captain]

Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

He put Prussia on the political map, and they stayed there until the Prussians united with the rest of the German princes into Germany.

I vote for Frederick II.

Only just, after that debacle at Jena-Auerstadt in 1806.

[Wolfe Tone]

I go with Fred - he had a tougher position to defend and fought more battles and campaigns with the odds stacked against him than Wellington did.

Wellington was a very good General but not a brilliant one. Not too sure he did win every battle and siege BTW.

[Post Captain]

Originally Posted by Wolfe Tone

I go with Fred - he had a tougher position to defend and fought more battles and campaigns with the odds stacked against him than Wellington did.

Wellington was a very good General but not a brilliant one. Not too sure he did win every battle and siege BTW.

Checked and double checked, he seems to have won every battle he commanded in. but one siege he had to abandon was Burgos through lack of a proper siege train.

[Wolfe Tone]

Originally Posted by mike brown

Checked and double checked, he seems to have won every battle he commanded in. but one siege he had to abandon was Burgos through lack of a proper siege train.

What about Toulouse on 10 April 1814? - Soult at the least held him to a draw on the day.

Talavera (27-28 July 1809) was a tactical stalemate - neither side being able to drive the other from the battlefield.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/c_battles.html

Busaco (27th September 1810) was certainly a tactical victory against Massena's soldiers in a battle he should have had the good sense not to have fought.
But Wellington failed to guard his flank (left IIRC) and was his position was turned by Massena within days in a fairly obvious manouvre - so who won really???

Quatre Bras 16th June 1815 - whose Victory Napoleon's or Wellington's? - the Allies withdrew that night.

[Post Captain]

Originally Posted by Wolfe Tone

What about Toulouse on 10 April 1814? - Soult at the least held him to a draw on the day.

Talavera (27-28 July 1809) was a tactical stalemate - neither side being able to drive the other from the battlefield.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/c_battles.html

Busaco (27th September 1810) was certainly a tactical victory against Massena's soldiers in a battle he should have had the good sense not to have fought.
But Wellington failed to guard his flank (left IIRC) and was his position was turned by Massena within days in a fairly obvious manouvre - so who won really???

Quatre Bras 16th June 1815 - whose Victory Napoleon's or Wellington's? - the Allies withdrew that night.

Toulouse total victory, we gained the city, because the French fell back and were beaten, still a victory, as for Quatre Bras we held Ney, and Wellington had to fall back because Ligny was a total louse up, else Wellington would have been flanked, we retook all objectives by the end of the day at QB which had been taken by the French earlier.
Talavera, since when did the British government give awards for defeats or stalemates, ie Wellington being made a Viscount, and the British still held the ground.
Busaco was a delaying action for the fall back on the lines of Torres Vedras, and the French were still held and given a very bloody nose.

[KGPanzerschrecK]

This one is so tough for me. I admire both men. I went with Wellington because he took down Nappy.

[Daemon of Decay]

Frederick.

Building an empire is harder than beating a man who built one.

Unless he's a cripple.

[Wolfe Tone]

Originally Posted by mike brown

Toulouse total victory, we gained the city, because the French fell back and were beaten, still a victory, as for Quatre Bras we held Ney, and Wellington had to fall back because Ligny was a total louse up, else Wellington would have been flanked, we retook all objectives by the end of the day at QB which had been taken by the French earlier.
Talavera, since when did the British government give awards for defeats or stalemates, ie Wellington being made a Viscount, and the British still held the ground.
Busaco was a delaying action for the fall back on the lines of Torres Vedras, and the French were still held and given a very bloody nose.

Busaco was a delaying action for the fall back on the lines of Torres Vedras, and the French were still held and given a very bloody nose

Toulouse was a delaying action by Soult and he held the city as night fell.

If Busaco is a British Victory then Toulouse is a British Defeat.

If Toulouse is a British Victory then Busaco is a British Defeat.

Can't have it both ways.

Talavera was drummed up into a great victory to boost morale back home - while not a tactical defeat as such* it's a fact Wellington advanced no further.

* both sides fought well on the field of battle.

[Cap. Teancum]

Originally Posted by Half Pint

That and a lack of knowledge. Luis you being a history teach I'm surprised with your pick

HP

You forgot the part that I'm also portuguese. Wellington was a very important figure in here. He was fantastic in helping us beat the french invasions. I've nothing but gratitute towards him, ence my vote.