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  #16  
Old 17 Feb 17, 20:19
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F-22 has the issue of it's not in production, it's tech while advanced is out of date, few of the manufactures likely even build the components any more, some company's no longer exist at all.
While many of the assemblies still exist, it will take time to set up and train the workers on them.

So we are looking at 3-5 years before they start rolling off the lines in some numbers.

With the F-35 the tech is newer and more open in manufacturing and better made to be upgraded, it is also in production and about to enter full rate production, it's recent production order put a F-35A at ~95 million with engine (the F-22 which is largely just a AtA fighter was ~150 million lowest price).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I think the Air Force can make a case for more F-22's. Maybe not as many as they wanted, but some. The JSF might replace the F-16, but not the A-10.

Pruitt
The F-35 will replace the F-16 their is no debating this, the A-10 will also get replaced, though its more likely just a defacto replacement as it's retied with out a real replacement.

Their is little the A-10 can do that the F-35 can not do, and their are a number of things the F-35 can do the A-10 can only dream of doing.
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  #17  
Old 17 Feb 17, 20:39
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Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
I would go with the F-22.
WOW! A 13 year old necrothread. That must be a record.

PS--There's no chance of restarting the F22 production line.
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  #18  
Old 17 Feb 17, 21:17
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On defence, Trump is an ill-informed moron or an unstable, ill-informed moron.

No more F-22s, F-35 stays relatively unchanged (well done, LM, you played him well) and Super Hornets remain in the closet.

Are the US military senior leaders not worried about this?
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  #19  
Old 17 Feb 17, 22:15
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Originally Posted by Nebfer View Post
There is little the A-10 can do that the F-35 can not do, and their are a number of things the F-35 can do the A-10 can only dream of doing.
Not quite. The A-10 can take damage and return to base. There are many redundancies designed in to achieve this. One thing for sure the F-35 can't do is carry as much ordinance as an A-10. The F-35 is so expensive we can't risk flying them close to the target.

Sooner or later Radar Technology will evolve again and all that Stealth will be useless. Then we will be stuck with lots of EXPENSIVE aircraft that can not carry a decent bombload. The Serbs were able to track F-117's and shot one down. The Serbs were using Doppler Weather Radar.

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  #20  
Old 18 Feb 17, 00:11
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Not quite. The A-10 can take damage and return to base. There are many redundancies designed in to achieve this. One thing for sure the F-35 can't do is carry as much ordinance as an A-10. The F-35 is so expensive we can't risk flying them close to the target.

Sooner or later Radar Technology will evolve again and all that Stealth will be useless. Then we will be stuck with lots of EXPENSIVE aircraft that can not carry a decent bombload. The Serbs were able to track F-117's and shot one down. The Serbs were using Doppler Weather Radar.

Pruitt
The A-10 is obsolete in advanced SAM environments and they will only keep getting better the F-35 is the only aircraft that'll be able to complete missions from now on in CAS for the next 40-50 years unless some new technology makes them obsolete the A-10 and its replacement are only useful in low intensity environments.

Last edited by VinceW; 18 Feb 17 at 00:19..
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  #21  
Old 18 Feb 17, 10:37
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So you are saying that the F-35 is immune to advanced SAM systems? We can only hope it is true.

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Old 18 Feb 17, 21:51
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
So you are saying that the F-35 is immune to advanced SAM systems? We can only hope it is true.

Pruitt
No like all other things in life it's not perfect but it will be more dominant than any of the other aircraft that it's replacing.
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  #23  
Old 20 Feb 17, 02:03
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Not quite. The A-10 can take damage and return to base. There are many redundancies designed in to achieve this. One thing for sure the F-35 can't do is carry as much ordinance as an A-10. The F-35 is so expensive we can't risk flying them close to the target.

Sooner or later Radar Technology will evolve again and all that Stealth will be useless. Then we will be stuck with lots of EXPENSIVE aircraft that can not carry a decent bombload. The Serbs were able to track F-117's and shot one down. The Serbs were using Doppler Weather Radar.

Pruitt
The A-10 is not that much better at taking damage, The F-35s hydraulics are far more redundant than the A-10s, as a hit wont actually kill the entire system. The F-35 can in theory fly with a wing missing, not unlike that F-15 that did that all thoughs years ago. An A-10 can not even come close to that.

Though any significant amount of damage is effectively a mission kill and the F-35 is far far better at avoiding getting hit in the first place than the A-10 ever will be. First off it has Stealth, and unlike what you think Stealth is very useful and dose work (if it did not then plz tell me why is Russia developing a stealth fighter? not to mention China, Japan, India, Turkey and others, it would make more sense for them to develop better radars than to develop a fighter with a "useless" system).
Then theirs the Sensors and the vastly superior information management the F-35 has over the A-10 (or other fighters). The F-35 has built in ECM, A-10s needs an external pod (as do F-16, F-15...).

The F-35 has the capability to tell the pilot which missile it detected and tracked is heading for it, out of a group of missiles

Interesting a report based on the feed back by 31 current F-35 pilots on how well it performed compared to their former rides had it beating the A-10 hands down in all listed perimeters
http://www.heritage.org/defense/repo...and-concurrent

To expensive? News for you Flyaway costs is 95 million as of LRIP 10 for a F-35A, this is less than by in large all European fighters at this time.
Even the F-16 Block 60s are in the triple digits

Also Funny is your assertion that the A-10 carrys more payload, this is false, the A-10 is rated to carry 16,000 pounds, the F-35 is 18,000 pounds. Now sure at this moment the F-35 is limited in what it can carry, but you could say that for a lot of aircraft early on in their historys.

Funny we lost more A-10s in the 91 gulf war than F-16s doing largely the same job.

Over some 8,100 sorties the A-10 suffered 7 lost, with 13 damaged, where as 3 F-16s where lost and 4 damaged over some 13,500 sorties.

SAM Hits A-10 11 / F-16 1
AAA Hits A-10 9 / F-16 5
unknown F-16 1

1/19 F-16C Lost Radar SAM
1/19 F-16C Lost Radar SAM
1/21 F-16C Damaged Radar SAM
2/26 F-16A Damaged IR SAM
2/26 F-16C Damaged unknown
2/27 F-16C Lost AAA
2/27 F-16C Damaged IR SAM

1/17 A-10 Damaged AAA
1/17 A-10 Damaged AAA
1/23 A-10 Damaged AAA
1/29 A-10 Damaged AAA
1/31 OA-10 Damaged AAA
1/31 A-10 Damaged IR SAM
2/1 A-10 Damaged AAA
2/1 A-10 Damaged AAA
2/1 A-10 Lost IR SAM
2/2 A-10 Damaged AAA
2/5 A-10 Lost AAA
2/6 A-10 Damaged IR SAM
2/11 A-10 Damaged AAA
2/11 A-10 Damaged AAA
2/15 A-10 Lost SA-13
2/15 A-10 Lost SA-13
2/15 A-10 Damaged IR SAM
2/19 OA-10 Lost IR SAM
2/22 A-10 Lost IR SAM
2/27 OA-10 Lost IR SAM

source
http://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aaloss/

Going off these numbers looks like the F-16/F-35 route (high and fast) is far far better than the A-10 route (of low and slow, and after 91 actually started using the high and fast method IIRC).

Also as for the F-117 shoot down, it was flying straight and level, with the same route every time, it also had no way of telling it was being attacked. The Serbs stated that their FC radars (X band I believe) only picked it up at ~8 miles which is when they engaged, though I believe their search radars saw it at around ~30 miles.
The F-117 also I believe had its bomb bay doors open at the time (increasing RCS).

Low freq radars like VHF search radars are not a magical detection system for stealth aircraft they are still affected by stealth just to a lesser degree than higher freq radars used in fire control (largely due to them not caring to much about the shaping done to deal with higher freq systems), in any case these Search radars are generally only good at telling you somethings their, not shooting at things.

A vid on Radar and how stealth functions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwh-1jRGuDc

Last edited by Nebfer; 20 Feb 17 at 02:09..
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  #24  
Old 20 Feb 17, 02:48
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I am curious as to how an F-35 can carry 18,000 pounds of munitions? The last time I looked the aircraft was limited in how much they could fit into the bomb bay. If you hang bombs on the wings and fuselage, you lose all that stealth. Then why do you need stealth if you won't use it?

The A-10's and Harriers took a licking in Iraq because they flew into the zone where ground gunfire could reach them. The F-16 flew above this. The accuracy at this altitude was not as good as flying lower and slower.

I have seen A-10 damage to the wings, rudders and engines that would bring down an F-35. You seem to forget that the F-35 has NOT seen as much combat as the A-10 has. An A-10 does not need computers to keep it flying. The famous F-15 that returned to base without one wing just proves that there was just enough lift provided by the fuselage and only one wing to keep it flying.

The A-10 was even able to fly night missions by just using the cameras on their munitions. Would I like to see better electronics on an A-10? Sure, but the Generals will not spend the money because the F-35 is sucking the budget dry.

I want the Air Force to continue to have the capability to fly low and slow and loiter over the battlezone. The F-35 can't do this. There is no armor around the pilot and the aircraft cannon is not a GAU-8. Flying at speed at 10,000 feet is nice, but will not cut it in many scenarios.

In case you did not know it, the Air Force only has limited number of smart bombs at any one time and the guidance systems are expensive. Even in Vietnam, the Air Force would run low on bombs and would send up aircraft with only one or two bombs on air support missions.

As for the Russians and Chinese building their own versions of Stealth Fighters, do you remember what happened when the US Navy brought out its new F-14 Tomcat? The Soviets came out with several aircraft with swing wings. Neither country repeated this later on when the problems with swing wings came out. Swing Wings did not work well and added a LOT of weight to the aircraft. There is no indication that Stealth design is going to last either. Over the years the Soviets and Americans designed many aircraft that would "Keep Up With The Jones". If the Red Air Force had a Interceptor that could sprint at up to Mach 2.8, the Air Force Generals HAD to have one as well. Unfortunately the F-15 could only get up to about Mach 2.5, and that speed declined as the weight was added on. The MiG 25 that made a run from Syria to Egypt at around Mach 3.0 was actually an example of an engine that went haywire and cranked it up to maximum. It landed just as the engine self destructed.

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  #25  
Old 20 Feb 17, 06:41
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I am curious as to how an F-35 can carry 18,000 pounds of munitions? The last time I looked the aircraft was limited in how much they could fit into the bomb bay. If you hang bombs on the wings and fuselage, you lose all that stealth. Then why do you need stealth if you won't use it?
It is not a binary calculation. In the face of advanced air defenses carry only internal ordinance. Against poor defences, carry anything you want. You have the option that you lack on a legacy aircraft.

Quote:
The A-10's and Harriers took a licking in Iraq because they flew into the zone where ground gunfire could reach them. The F-16 flew above this. The accuracy at this altitude was not as good as flying lower and slower.
That is a common fallacy; low altitude does not necessarily mean higher accuracy. In fact, as most weapons are now guided, it may mean the opposite.

Quote:
The famous F-15 that returned to base without one wing just proves that there was just enough lift provided by the fuselage and only one wing to keep it flying.
Which occurred owing a a collision in training, BTW, not combat. Given the shape of the F-35, it may well be able to do the same, particularity as it has a more advanced flight control system that should make it easier to hold stable with significant damage.

Quote:
The A-10 was even able to fly night missions by just using the cameras on their munitions. Would I like to see better electronics on an A-10? Sure, but the Generals will not spend the money because the F-35 is sucking the budget dry
Possibly, but since it is begin phased out of service in any case, it wont. There is also a limit on what it can do even with better kit. You might improve its ability to do certain things, but there would be a limit on investment

Quote:
I want the Air Force to continue to have the capability to fly low and slow and loiter over the battlezone. The F-35 can't do this. There is no armor around the pilot and the aircraft cannon is not a GAU-8. Flying at speed at 10,000 feet is nice, but will not cut it in many scenarios.
Actually it will. The GAU-8 - firing only AP rounds - is not terribly useful against many targets and requires the aircraft to descend into light SAM territory. Flying at 10,000 feet is in many ways safer and allows a better view of the target for SDB use.

Quote:
In case you did not know it, the Air Force only has limited number of smart bombs at any one time and the guidance systems are expensive. Even in Vietnam, the Air Force would run low on bombs and would send up aircraft with only one or two bombs on air support missions.
These days most air forces have a degree of stock, the US have the largest stock of all. they are also becoming far cheaper. Since the A-10 (and everything else) mainly uses guided weapons, it is not much of an argument against the F-35.

Quote:
As for the Russians and Chinese building their own versions of Stealth Fighters, do you remember what happened when the US Navy brought out its new F-14 Tomcat? The Soviets came out with several aircraft with swing wings. Neither country repeated this later on when the problems with swing wings came out. Swing Wings did not work well and added a LOT of weight to the aircraft. There is no indication that Stealth design is going to last either. Over the years the Soviets and Americans designed many aircraft that would "Keep Up With The Jones". If the Red Air Force had a Interceptor that could sprint at up to Mach 2.8, the Air Force Generals HAD to have one as well. Unfortunately the F-15 could only get up to about Mach 2.5, and that speed declined as the weight was added on. The MiG 25 that made a run from Syria to Egypt at around Mach 3.0 was actually an example of an engine that went haywire and cranked it up to maximum. It landed just as the engine self destructed.
There have been, historically, many dead-ends and many ignored ideas in aviation. Swing wings looked like a good idea, but the costs outweighed the benefits. FBW looked like a good idea and proved that it was, same with AESAs and you do not want to go up against an AESA if you are still using a MSCAN. The jury is still out on thrust vectoring.

The reason that the Russians and Chinese are trying to build low RCS aircraft is that current generation fighters stick out like sore thumbs and are at significant risk form latest radars and effectors. That does not mean the F-35 and other 5th Gen are invulnerable, but some form of low RCS is becoming the new standard, just like an F-4 could tackle an F-15 (or, more accurate, a formation could as 1 vs 1 is very rare) but the adds are stacked in the F-15's favour because it can see and decide what to do long before the F-4s can bother it. Same for the F-35 and F-22, which can not only see a lot further than they can be seen, they can also share this data and provide targeting to other aircraft.

This is only basic assessment; no one knows what the F-35 can really do with its radar, jamming and other systems. I know everyone likes the A-10 because it is macho and heroic but with the exception of the cannon it has very little going for it these days.
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Old 23 Feb 17, 19:54
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I am curious as to how an F-35 can carry 18,000 pounds of munitions? The last time I looked the aircraft was limited in how much they could fit into the bomb bay. If you hang bombs on the wings and fuselage, you lose all that stealth. Then why do you need stealth if you won't use it?
When Black 3F gets issued within the next 12 or so months (it's just a software update) the F-35 will be allowed to use external stores
At that point it can carry up words of 18,000 pounds in combat (though true it's unlikely to have many options that use that much, but you can say that for every aircraft).

Sigh just because it's carrying external ordnance dose not mean it's stealth is completely gone. With a pair of bombs under the wings It's still stealthier than a F-16 with the same bomb load (and it likely has the internals as well), is it as stealthy with a pure internal load out no, it's stealth just dose not disappear just because you put something on the wings.
Quote:
The A-10's and Harriers took a licking in Iraq because they flew into the zone where ground gunfire could reach them. The F-16 flew above this. The accuracy at this altitude was not as good as flying lower and slower.
And this showed that low altitude CAS is very dangerous even to the well armored A-10. The Air force learned that lesson, in fact the A-10s where some what grounded during the Gulf war because they where taking to many losses. The A-10 was built around the 23mm AA gun as the primary air defense, but when the plane showed up every one was starting to pack MANPADS and started to switch to 30mm AAA.



Quote:
I have seen A-10 damage to the wings, rudders and engines that would bring down an F-35. You seem to forget that the F-35 has NOT seen as much combat as the A-10 has. An A-10 does not need computers to keep it flying. The famous F-15 that returned to base without one wing just proves that there was just enough lift provided by the fuselage and only one wing to keep it flying.
No really? the F-35 has recently entered service the A-10 has been their for over 30 so it's a bit hypocritical to say but the A-10 has seen combat when talking about the F-35s lack of it it just entered service.

As for the F-15s one wing, it can do that because it derives a good chunk of it's lift from the body as every fighter from the F-15 onward uses lifting body techniques. This is also a fact that most who look at the Wing loading values tend to forget, that a good portion of their lift is provided by things other than wings.



Quote:
The A-10 was even able to fly night missions by just using the cameras on their munitions. Would I like to see better electronics on an A-10? Sure, but the Generals will not spend the money because the F-35 is sucking the budget dry.
They actually did get some upgrades, the A-10C includes Link-16, ability to use smart munitions (like JDAMs), computer upgrades, upgraded displays including a pair of color MFDs, a Digital stores manigment system and the ability to use more modern Targeting pods like LITENING or Sniper (replacing the old PAVE Penny).

Even then providing even more ability's dose not make it the equal to an F-35s sensors and data management.



Quote:
I want the Air Force to continue to have the capability to fly low and slow and loiter over the battlezone. The F-35 can't do this. There is no armor around the pilot and the aircraft cannon is not a GAU-8. Flying at speed at 10,000 feet is nice, but will not cut it in many scenarios.
Low and slow simply gets you shot down, in any significant threat environment. Even then you need to define low and slow and endurance.

The GAU-8 is not a magical wonder weapon in fact it's capability's on armor is vastly overstated.

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In case you did not know it, the Air Force only has limited number of smart bombs at any one time and the guidance systems are expensive. Even in Vietnam, the Air Force would run low on bombs and would send up aircraft with only one or two bombs on air support missions.
Sure but at the same time a hand full of smart bombs can do the job of an entire squadron of aircraft.

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As for the Russians and Chinese building their own versions of Stealth Fighters, do you remember what happened when the US Navy brought out its new F-14 Tomcat? The Soviets came out with several aircraft with swing wings. Neither country repeated this later on when the problems with swing wings came out. Swing Wings did not work well and added a LOT of weight to the aircraft. There is no indication that Stealth design is going to last either. Over the years the Soviets and Americans designed many aircraft that would "Keep Up With The Jones". If the Red Air Force had a Interceptor that could sprint at up to Mach 2.8, the Air Force Generals HAD to have one as well. Unfortunately the F-15 could only get up to about Mach 2.5, and that speed declined as the weight was added on. The MiG 25 that made a run from Syria to Egypt at around Mach 3.0 was actually an example of an engine that went haywire and cranked it up to maximum. It landed just as the engine self destructed.

Pruitt
This is largely a red herring.

LO aircraft is the way forward, All fighters use high frequency radars as the low frequency ones that have a better time dealing with current LO techniques are simply to big to fit on fighters and still have a good range/ resolution for fire control.

If I can see twice as far as you can see me then I have an advantage.
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  #27  
Old 24 Feb 17, 04:44
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The biggest let down for the A-10 during the Gulf war was the lack of having an improved engine and low cost improvements... night vision capability for one. Night time attacks were severely restricted for that reason alone, only one of the six squadrons had been trained for night time attacks.
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Old 24 Feb 17, 06:02
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The biggest let down for the A-10 during the Gulf war was the lack of having an improved engine and low cost improvements... night vision capability for one. Night time attacks were severely restricted for that reason alone, only one of the six squadrons had been trained for night time attacks.
For which in any case they probably would not have used the cannon.

One of the issues with the F-35 may well prove to be the over-match for COIN / asymmetric warfare. It's CPFH is pretty high (though mitigated by fleet mass), so it will prove an expensive way of dropping SDBs on technicals. That being said, as it can network with UAS / UCAVs and others, it is still worth having but it may turn out to be an over-engineered hammer for many nails.
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Old 24 Feb 17, 06:30
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Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
For which in any case they probably would not have used the cannon.
Yes, the GAU-8 had mixed results, Iraqi air defences kept the pilots from getting within optimum range in the conditions they had to fly in. The 11 hard points on the A-10 was an advantage, being a stable platform, good loiter times and slow enough to acquire better target acquisition... although the F-35 should be able to do the later quite well.

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Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
One of the issues with the F-35 may well prove to be the over-match for COIN / asymmetric warfare. It's CPFH is pretty high (though mitigated by fleet mass), so it will prove an expensive way of dropping SDBs on technicals. That being said, as it can network with UAS / UCAVs and others, it is still worth having but it may turn out to be an over-engineered hammer for many nails.
I agree.
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  #30  
Old 05 Apr 17, 18:28
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I say buy more F-22 mostly because the F-15Cs are getting old and the U.S.A.F. needs to also look at replacing the Strike Eagles as well.
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