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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > World History Group Hosting > RKKA (The Russian Army) in World War II

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RKKA (The Russian Army) in World War II Discuss the Russian armed forces in World War II. Hosted by our resident Russian expert, AMVAS. Please visit his RKKA in WW2 Website.

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  #46  
Old 11 Feb 08, 12:42
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About Zhukov, I would recommend the trilogy by Vladimir Karpov. E.g. vol.3: http://militera.lib.ru/bio/karpov3/
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  #47  
Old 01 Sep 08, 12:15
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hi, it possible that i receive a little help to understand this russian abbreviation?



because here by german army, any of this abbreviation is unknow for me.

thank's for help.
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  #48  
Old 02 Sep 08, 02:46
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Leclerc1944,

Most of those abbreviations can be found on Amvas site
Seems unusual:
your "8 A.K." - 8-й подв. корп. (В) - 8th Mobile Corps (Hungarian)

your "6 Pio.Br". - "6 Inf.Br."

then

3 Cav.Br., 1 Tank Br., 3 Motorized Br.

Altogether 63.5 estimated Divisions
Incl. in front of KOVO (Kiev Military District - Rambow)
6, 17 Army, 1 T Gr. (should be 8th Hungarian Corps as well - Rambow): 26 Inf.Div., 6 Tank Div., 4 Motorized Div. - Total 36 Div.
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  #49  
Old 02 Sep 08, 05:12
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oh, yes, because on moment, i have just call this pionieer (engineer) brigade, but dont was definitive was not sure, thank's!

yes and i have two file about russian military abbreviation, from amvas site.
And main abbreviation on this two file, done result, about abbreviation on russian unit, so if German or hungarn, or another abbreviation is used on map, use different name, so translation done heavy problem.

And second problem was, that was writing into italic format, so i have receive any comprehension (understanding) problem to identify abbreviation.

And so i have any other question?
have italic form any special understanding form into russian language?
or for what reason, russian people use more italic form to write cyrillic alphabet?
Difference between standard cyrillic form and cyrillic italic writing form.

Are a reason, that exist multiple cyrillic variation, so Ukrainian, russian, bielorussian...............?
So that ukrainian or bielorussian people understand it better, if this are write into this italic form?
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  #50  
Old 02 Sep 08, 08:32
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Quote:
Altogether 63.5 estimated Divisions
Incl. in front of KOVO (Kiev Military District - Rambow)
6, 17 Army, 1 T Gr. (should be 8th Hungarian Corps as well - Rambow): 26 Inf.Div., 6 Tank Div., 4 Motorized Div. - Total 36 Div.
And when you say, inclusive in front of kovo!
will this say, total of german and russian unit on map are 63,5 division?
or 63,5 division = heer army?

and not inclusive: the CSIR (italian which join on 10 July, or i don't see slovakian force we was insert into german heer army) 11 A. (insert CSIR italian) and 17 A (insert slovak force).

or slovak = 49 гск? because i have see in area, 1гсд (1st Slovak (Mobile) Infantry Division)??

(this is explain into wikipedia, about german army structure from Barbarossa Mission by south Army Group).

Last edited by leclerc1944; 02 Sep 08 at 08:43..
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  #51  
Old 02 Sep 08, 11:55
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The italics are irrelevant. Here's what the chart says:

Army Group South
6th, 17th, 11th Armies, 1st Panzer Group, 3rd and 4th Romanian Armies, 8th Mobile Army (Hungarian)
Total: 48 infantry divisions, 5 panzer divisions, 6 infantry brigades, 3 cavalry brigades, 1 tank brigade, 3 mechanized (or motorized) brigades.
Result: 63 and a half division equivalents.
Of them, in front of the KOVO: 6th and 17th Armies, 1st Panzer Group - 26 infantry divisions, 6 panzer divisions, 4 mechanized (or motorized) divisions, for a total of 36 divisions
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  #52  
Old 02 Sep 08, 13:50
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yes kardon, now i have already understand, because i have forgot to look on right side, we are enumerate russian front army. Because, by read kovo word, i have think was speak over russian unit, but i have forgot that russian use word kovo to mean area, so was normal to find kovo word by german side!!

so it all clear.
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  #53  
Old 02 Sep 08, 15:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leclerc1944 View Post
yes kardon, now i have already understand, because i have forgot to look on right side, we are enumerate russian front army. Because, by read kovo word, i have think was speak over russian unit, but i have forgot that russian use word kovo to mean area, so was normal to find kovo word by german side!!

so it all clear.
KOVO means Kiev Special Military District, by the way.
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  #54  
Old 02 Sep 08, 17:07
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yes, i have know that KOVO = Kiev Special Military district!

but,on starting, i don't understand the reason, that "Kiev Special Military district", was mentioned on German side.

So it are normal to find or write "Army Group South", or any other mention we take reference on German Army group, because this mention have done a bad interpretation of text sentence.

On my translated version, i don't will write this mention, but i call this information as Army Group South. And on Russian side, and on area of map, i will write KOVO (Kiev Special Military district).

So into future, i will write same, ZapOVO on area of Western district or OdVo, on Area of Odessa map etc.....
So don't done confusion.
but nothing on German side.

but, i stop now!
This was vision of map author, so i don't would critic he's works, each author can use she's vision of works! And i know that each language have any specification on word expression.
So nothing all real expression can't are really 100% translated into real meaning sense!

So example: i been sure, if i start write a text into french language, so i been sure, that you or any other people, don't have real success to make done a real good interpretation of my meaning sentence, so i been sure, nothing each time, if i write into English, all people don't understand, my meaning sentence.

The best way to erase this problem, is to use synonym of explained word, so that word have better interpretation way.

mention have synonym "comment or note"

Last edited by leclerc1944; 02 Sep 08 at 17:24..
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  #55  
Old 02 Sep 08, 19:44
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Please take it easy, guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leclerc1944 View Post
but,on starting, i don't understand the reason, that "Kiev Special Military district", was mentioned on German side.
Well, there it showed the part of German troops stayed immediately against the KOVO. Because 11th Army and Romanian armies were directed on the OdVO (Odessa Military District).

That map was taken from a book about 5th Soviet Army by Vladimirsky. That army was a part of the KOVO. Thus the author focused on the KOVO (South West Front) actions.
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  #56  
Old 03 Sep 08, 08:13
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ok thank's Rambow,
and here is not comment of Slovak Brigade Pilfousek, or think you that by this 63,5 equivalent division, was integrate unit of this Brigade :
Quote:
Brigade Pilfousek consisted of the I/6 Mot.Inf.Bn., I/11 Mot.Art.Bn., the 1st Tank Bn. with the 1st and 2nd Tank Co. and the 1st and 2nd Anti-Tank Co., 2nd Recon.Bn., 1st Weapons Co., 2nd Motorcycle Co., and the I/3/I Mot.Eng. Platoon.
Quote:
In the beginning of August, 1941, the Slovak Army Group was pulled out of the lines when it was decided to form two new units that would be better suited to the actions they would be taking part in. The best units of the former Slovak Army Group were now organized into two new divisions, the 1st Slovak (Mobile) Infantry Division and the 2nd Slovak (Security) Infantry Division. The 1st Slovak (Mobile) Infantry Division was also known as the Slovak Fast Division.
this information coming from wikipedia!
so if this was don't noted, so i should add more two division on 63,5 equivalent, or not?
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  #57  
Old 03 Sep 08, 10:13
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AFAIK German plan did not include Slovak forces. Slovakia offered her help already when the war started. The brigade was formed later - when it became obvious that Slovak forces were not able to follow Germans because of their lack of mobility. So this map does not count Slovaks.

Last edited by Rambow; 03 Sep 08 at 17:45..
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  #58  
Old 03 Sep 08, 17:28
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ok rambow, and on down, on area of 3.Romanian army, and 11. heer army. was not note on emplacement and different unit, so i have found info.

i note this into my translate version, because, so as 4th Romanian Army, was out of map plan, so now, i don't know, if i should subtract, amount of this army+ other sub unit from german11. Army, we don't have fight into KOVO sector.

into this area, the amount of used unit :
1 cav. Br., 3 mountain brigade and 1 infantry division. (for first attack sector)
1 Cav. Corps(with 2 cav. Br.), and by 11. A.K. was (3 infantry division, and 1 Armored Division) to second sector. (here is mixed army, so Romanian and German unit mix, because, on 63,5 counted unit, this was mentioned that was general count, so all unit mix).

And other unit from 11, or 4. Romanian Army,has area sector out of map, so don't should are count.
sure on other map, with Odessa district, this unit is to don't forget.

So i think, to don't make error, i count each corps, division, brigade, we i can identify on map.

and here i give you a overview on my works.


what think you? is this good readable with so presentation?
(to moment i been just on left side, so i should make same for russian unit right side).

Last edited by leclerc1944; 03 Sep 08 at 18:21..
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  #59  
Old 03 Sep 08, 18:19
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In the book Vladimirsky gives some explanation: "63.5 division equivalents, including 44 German, 17.5 Romanian and 2 Hungarian divisions.

Actually such "summing of equivalents" always has some approximation IMO. And, please, do not forget this book is about 5th Army, so some details out of that Army sector may be abandoned.

EDIT: Sorry, I did not notice your last post.

I do not know purpose of your work so I can not advice exactly.

As for readability - it may be OK for your personal use but for publishing I suppose would be better to redraw the map completely and to place translated names on the map.

As for content - it requires more thorough research tht I afford now. And again I don't know your aim. For instance, if you want to show the situation on the beginning of the GPW, I have doubts about the Slovak brigade. As I said above that brigade did not exist on 22.6.41 - it was formed later from mobile parts of various Slovak troops.

All is just my personal opinion

Last edited by Rambow; 04 Sep 08 at 00:14..
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  #60  
Old 03 Sep 08, 23:02
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ok, rambow by make any research i have found this info on wikipedia!
(is one of my source from west side)
Quote:
The Slovak Expeditionary Army Group in Russia

Four days after the Germans invaded the Soviet Union during Operation Barbarossa, Slovakia sent its own units forward against the Russian lines in the form of the Slovakian Expeditionary Army Group. The Slovak Army Group was commanded by the Slovak Minister of Defense, Ferdinand Čatloš.

As the Campaign in the East drew on, the Slovak forces began to fall behind the massive German sweep across the Soviet Union. This was mainly because of a general lack of mobile forces able to transport the 45,000 strong Slovak Army Group alongside the German advance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_...9%E2%80%931945)

but on map is not Slovakian we are to see, but Hungary , so i have just use another name as 8th Mobile corps.
but on this emplacement, it was attack on start of 1 July 1941.

But Slovakian force pass l'vov on 8 July.

and, my purpose of works, is for game modder forum, so that mapper can better make game map and history battle design.

And i have add any arrow into different color, one brown dark = attack of Romanian army corps on 22 june.
so i would just done information from 22 June to 17 July 1941.

so is to see on a overview, of battle area.

And redraw map, no because any russian gamer have say, it like better wen it content double language.
So Cyrillic and Latin alphabet.

and on moment, i have just done a overview of map with 45% of scale factor.
because so map is incomplete, i don't like publish it into normal resolution mode.

Last edited by leclerc1944; 03 Sep 08 at 23:08..
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