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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East

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The Middle East Asia Minor, the Arab Mahgreb, and the Persian Gulf to include tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbors, Terrorist organizations and Iran.

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  #16  
Old 03 Sep 06, 13:31
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Don't try to discredit the writer's point by attacking Roth. Roth's neutrality isn't the issue here. Her point is we lack the ability to dialogue about Israel without being labeled anti-semitic.
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  #17  
Old 03 Sep 06, 13:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolley
Don't try to discredit the writer's point by attacking Roth. Roth's neutrality isn't the issue here. Her point is we lack the ability to dialogue about Israel without being labeled anti-semitic.
Her point is backed up by citing roth and the human rights watch as those who criticize israel.

The complaint is lacking because it is based upon the premise that these criticisms were coming from a neutral organization and a man who heads that organization whom is also neutral.

She refers specifically to the articles and letters that I brought forth, thus roth's and human rights watch is central to her point. She is using that organization and that individual as examples of 'neutral criticism' to defend her point. If those examples are shown to be anything but 'neutral criticism' then her argument which is based upon those examples evaporates.

Like the critics of people like roth and human rights watch have pointed out, it isn't criticism of israel's policies that is the problem, it is the lack of proper perspective being shown. It's akin to giving legitimacy to the nazi's argument in the 20's and 30's that blamed the loss of ww1 in part upon the joos.
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  #18  
Old 03 Sep 06, 13:54
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In my time here I've seen alotta smoke on the subject - similar to this story - but rarely have I found any actual fire in regard, here abouts. Discussion of it is generally pretty straight forward & tame by most considerations anywhere else.

The premise she trys to semantically paint need not be bolstered by the lie I point out. Her entire opinion became to me nothing more than semantical editorialization when she crossed that threshold.

Anti-semitism - like any racism - either is or it ain't. Regardless of any discussionary PCism to the contrary... it will still always be a judgment made by the consumer or observer. Try as you might, you can't silence the ignorant... You are lucky to mitigate its importance & pursue what is when choosing to opine.

What is allowed is what the participants decide in their wisely choosing to discuss it, or not.

When wisdom is entirely out the window... well...

That's another story.

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  #19  
Old 03 Sep 06, 15:18
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Not all critics of Israel are Anti-Semetic...but many are.

Therefore the solution is if you are a good faith critic you need to make your arguement carefully and choose appropriate words.

It is important to recognize that there is a lot of anti-semetic inspired Anti-Israel sentiment in the world and therefore it is natural for Israelis, Jews, and their supporters to be sensitive to it.

It is no different than being an American of European ancestory (white) and wanting to make a potenitally controversial remark about someone of a different race. We know that there are racial sensitivities...and saying something sloppily can get you in a world of trouble...we call this being Politically Correct. It is frustrating at times BUT these sensitivities exist because there is historical reason for it. Most white Americans are no longer racist...but in the past many were and certainly quite a few still are. Therefore we must communicate carefully.

It is no different regarding Israel. If you are of good faith you can accept and appreciate these valid sensitivities and you should communicate in a sensitive way...especially when you want to be critical.

Communicating with sensitivity in sensitive situations shouldn't be insulting to you...this is normal empathetic human behavior. If you want to be taken seriosuly in life you can't fight it... you have to accept it and act appropriately.
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  #20  
Old 03 Sep 06, 17:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EW
It is no different regarding Israel. If you are of good faith you can accept and appreciate these valid sensitivities and you should communicate in a sensitive way...especially when you want to be critical.
Granted, yet I've seen no posts on this forum that have criticized Israel with a lack of 'sensitivity.' To state that they used 'undue force' during the battle with Hezbollah (which is the only criticism I've seen here) is hardly worthy of the diatribes received in response.
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  #21  
Old 03 Sep 06, 20:34
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Just to clarify I wasn't refering to any specific post...just talking in general...and trying to respond to why maybe there is sensitivity around this subject.
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  #22  
Old 03 Sep 06, 22:24
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I'm more curious about the sentence about Ken Roth's father fleeing Nazi Germany. This fact seems to be taken as a gold medal proving that Ken Roth couldn't possibly be biased or anti-Israel.
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  #23  
Old 04 Sep 06, 00:15
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Darn right we should criticize Israel & her actions -- but as Eric posted, we should be smart enough to do so with sensitivity.

NOT criticizing Israel can only lead to an increase of US mistakes regards Israel, whose security situation remains so precarious that any US mistake regards Israel is very, very serious.

Criticizing Israel while refusing to criticize her enemies is indeed clear anti-Semitism. Drives me nuts when the local college idiots run around with their pro-Palestine crud, yet somehow forget to mention Israel's sufferings.

NOTE to Dolley: speaking only for myself, I did go a little berserk regards tones of my posts in the recent Hezy/Israel conflict. In large part because others in our society refuse to directly repudiate Hezzy actions, and not just college kids who choose to hand their brains to liberal professors.
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  #24  
Old 04 Sep 06, 00:36
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I hate Jews. Let me explain.

I hate Jews the same way I hate...

Muslims
Christians
Bhuddists
Hindus
Shintos
Athiests
White People
Mexicans
Black People
Asians
Women
Men
Children
Irish
Italians
Poor People
Rich People
Middle Class People
French People
Germans
British
Canadians
Eskimos
American Indians
Texans
Arabs
Russians
Greeks
Gay People
Straight People
Bisexual People
Australians
Dutch People
Swedes
Smokers
Non-Smokers
Alchoholics
Teetotalers
Drug Addicts

Here's how I hate these people...

Anyone who is one or more of the above-mentioned categories, and thinks that the very fact that they were born that certain way makes them better than anyone else...I freaking hate you.

Every religion does this. Every race does or has done this.

Basically, I hate those who have brought hatred to the world and left others to clean up their messes.

If you must hate, hate those who flaunt their hatred in hurtful ways.

Put another way, never become so tolerant that you are willing to tolerate intolerance.

So, with all this racist and anti-Semitic debate type-stuff going on, do we have an acceptable way to hate? It works for me.

For example...I hate terrorists, but I am quite comfortable with Arab Muslims.
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  #25  
Old 04 Sep 06, 02:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapierFighter
never become so tolerant that you are willing to tolerate intolerance.
So to sum it up you hate everyone....nice...

Not tolerating those that may judge/be intolerant is kinda judgemental/intolerant of you don't you think?
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  #26  
Old 04 Sep 06, 02:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolley
Interesting how much this sounds like some of the posters on this forum. Are these types of responses agreed upon for use by the neocons and whipped out whenever they hear something they don't like?
Reasonable and honest critiques of Israeli actions/policies never catch any grief.

However, just mouthing the lies of the terrorist groups dedicated to the destruction of Israel doesn't fall under that category. Also, throwing in snide comments/insinuations (such as Jews owning/running everything) doesn't help. AND...any time the so called critique includes any statement to the effect that Jews run the US government automatically puts the poster in the "anti-Semitic" column for me.

BTW, I am critical of some Israeli policies...
1) They shouldn't have given Gaza up.
2) They need to finish the wall.
3) They should have been many times harsher during the recent Leb incursion.

See, not one word about the great Jewish conspiracy to run the world.
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  #27  
Old 04 Sep 06, 02:58
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EW,

Quote:
It is no different regarding Israel. If you are of good faith you can accept and appreciate these valid sensitivities and you should communicate in a sensitive way...especially when you want to be critical.
While I agree with most of your post, the problem (as noticed in article) is that one can be of good faith and still blamed for anti-semitism.

Doley example being a good one. Some Israelis have troubles with how their army conduct operation in Lebanon. Yet having the same trouble while being not Israelis lead to accusation of anti-Semitims. Clearly something is wrong.

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  #28  
Old 04 Sep 06, 03:50
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I've seen how HRW does it's research - run up and talk to family of deceased person X. Learn how Evil soldiers of Empire Z are oppressing the poor folk of country Y. Write scathing diatribe against Z citing the death of X and many like him.

completely ignore the fact that X was undertaking combat actions against the soldiers of Z.

HRWs mandate seems to be blame the bigger side. Tamils vs India = India's fault. Russia vs Chechnya = Russia's fault. etc etc...
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  #29  
Old 04 Sep 06, 06:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Rapkinov
I've seen how HRW does it's research - run up and talk to family of deceased person X. Learn how Evil soldiers of Empire Z are oppressing the poor folk of country Y. Write scathing diatribe against Z citing the death of X and many like him.

completely ignore the fact that X was undertaking combat actions against the soldiers of Z.

HRWs mandate seems to be blame the bigger side. Tamils vs India = India's fault. Russia vs Chechnya = Russia's fault. etc etc...
If HRW seems to blame the bigger side, the reasons are very simple : proportionally, Israelis force are bigger and largely more powerful than the Hezbollah, so, proportionally, the report is bigger about Israel than about Hezbollah.

More generally, if you read HRW reports about Lebanon, you see that in their opinion, the war started with the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah, and they do not deny to Israel the right to defend herself.
And HRW can be “pro-Israel” :
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006...ebano13969.htm
Quote:
By adopting a politicized resolution that looks only at Israeli abuses in the current conflict, the Human Rights Council undermined its credibility and wasted an opportunity to protect civilians in the region, Human Rights Watch said today. The council decided to establish a commission of experts to investigate deadly attacks by Israel, but took no action with regard to Hezbollah’s murderous abuses. The council concluded a special session today in Geneva.

“The one-sided approach taken by the Human Rights Council is a blow to its credibility and an abdication of its responsibility to protect human rights for all,” said Peggy Hicks, global advocacy director at Human Rights Watch. “This is a poor way to launch a new institution.”
In fact, before the war I thought, after what I read on forums or other sites, that HRW was biased. But since I took a look at their site, I find them more or less neutral.

LaPalice.
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  #30  
Old 04 Sep 06, 11:02
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I agree with the guy in the articles points about Israel during the war. Yes, they attacked civilian areas as if they were a 'free fire zone', he is absolutely right about that. I can see why that would draw criticizm from some people, but those people should also be criticizing Hezbollah equaly if not more, which this guy actualy did. basically what he is doing is criticizing war in general, not any particular side. It's impossible to wage war without breaking human rights laws somewhere. I think it is much more likely that this guy is a pacifist than an anti-semite.
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