Jagdpanzer IV L 70

[iliketanks]

Hi all. I quick question here. I am working on a Jagdpanzer IV L 70 in parallel with my Panzer IV project. I was planing on finishing it up in an ambush scheme similar to the Panzer IV I am doing. I would like to have both vehicles in the 1st SS panzer division during the Battle of the Bulge. The question is did the German tanks that fought in that engagement display the key in shield emblem of the 1st SS on their fronts or did they go into battle with out any markings painted on them at all? Thanks

[pompey john]

i would imagine the new vehicles didn't. they were rushed to the front during darkness and apart from the camouflage, they wouldn't have the symbols on them. the old vehicles would have them on as they would have come from another frontline and would have already had the symbols on them.

[The Purist]

Originally Posted by iliketanks

... I would like to have both vehicles in the 1st SS panzer division during the Battle of the Bulge. ...

A better question would be, "did the JgPz IV L/70 serve in the LAH?" This version was somewhat rare in late 44 with most being used in 45 in TD battalions.

[Redwolf]

It's usually hard to figure that out since OOBs are not accurate enough to tell Jagdpanzer IV from Panzer 4/70 (the official designation).

The best best is probably to take "Battle of the Bulge - then and now" and scan the photos visually.

The book specifically says that the 1 Panzerjaeger Abteilung had 10 Panzer IV/70.

The photos show Panzer IV (turret) with markings on front. I see no other division markings on the front of other vehicles, on dozens of clear photos.

There is one very clear shot of a Panzer IV/70 (gun is shown in full length to it's a 70) that almost certainly belongs to SS Panzerjaegerabteilung 1 that has no markings. Has a clear HE hit mark on the front, too, with not even a dent.

[iliketanks]

Hi all. After digging around I found that these vehicles did indeed participate in the Ardennes offensive. The numbers range between 100 and 137 used, depending on what document you read. The enclosed pic allegedly shows a 1st SS Jagdpanzer IV/70 at the beginning of the attack. It appears to be wearing the tri color camo with spots (Ambush) unless the spots are chipped paint. Can’t see what’s on the front though. I also found that the US TD M36 Jackson though not listed on official US Army OOB, did also participate during the battle. There are a few photos of them in action. So much for official lists. Supposedly the Jagdpanzer IV/70 entered service during the summer of 1944. One other question. The model I am building has 4 return rollers and a single cylindrical exhaust system (like what is found on the backs of early Panzer IV tanks). I would like to put the flame dumping exhausts and mufflers (Flammentoter) duel exhaust system on this model but cant find any photos to back up that the 4 return roller tanks had these. The 3 return roller versions did. Would any one here have info on that subject? Thanks guys.

[pompey john]

the thing you have to remember is that the germans used to get their broken down or destroyed tanks and take them back to the workshops. if they could be repaired, they repaired them and sent them back to the front lines. if it was too far gone, they would have stripped it down for spares and if they were salvagable they took them back to the factories and retrofit them. the 3 roller types were introduced because they worked out that 3 rollers would be as good as 4 and therefore, it would cut down work on the production line and save neccessary parts and equipment. a panzer iv that had it's turret and upper part of the chassis destroyed would have been taken back to the factory and have a iv/70 superstructure fitted. it would have kept the 4 return rollers it would have had the duel exhaust fitted if the original was damaged. don't forget the front two wheels on both sides had the solid type wheels because of the extra weight up front. the photo is definately the ambush camouflage scheme. have a look at www.achtungpanzer.com/pz10.htm there's a better picture of that and other IV L/70's as well as a lot of information, some with 4 return rollers and some with 3.

[The Purist]

Originally Posted by Redwolf

It's usually hard to figure that out since OOBs are not accurate enough to tell Jagdpanzer IV from Panzer 4/70 (the official designation).

I'm not sure I'm following you here. The JgPz IV was a turretless TD as per the photo above (good photo, btw), while the Pz IV/70 (of which few were made iirc) was an oveloaded late variant of the Pz IV. If memory serves the Jgpz IV/70 was also overloaded by the large gun, which strained the suspesion of the front pair of road wheels and made steering difficult.

[Golden Collini]

The 1st SS Div had 10 Pz-IV/70's for the ardennes offensive in 1944/45.
Gelb with brown spot/splodge camouflage pattern.

No Divisional insignia but they did have balkan crosses on the sides.

They fought with Kampfgruppe Hansen

stuart

[JML]

Originally Posted by The Purist

I'm not sure I'm following you here. The JgPz IV was a turretless TD as per the photo above (good photo, btw), while the Pz IV/70 (of which few were made iirc) was an oveloaded late variant of the Pz IV. If memory serves the Jgpz IV/70 was also overloaded by the large gun, which strained the suspesion of the front pair of road wheels and made steering difficult.

There was not never Panzer IV armed with L70 gun, atleast not beyond prototype. There is confusion because Jagdpanzer IV:s with L70 gun were called by germans Pz IV/70, while those armed with L48 gun were called Jagdpanzer IV.

iliketanks, that picture you showed is not from LAH Pz IV/70, it is according Achtung Panzer Hitlerjugends Pz IV/70.

[Redwolf]

Originally Posted by The Purist

I'm not sure I'm following you here. The JgPz IV was a turretless TD as per the photo above (good photo, btw), while the Pz IV/70 (of which few were made iirc) was an oveloaded late variant of the Pz IV. If memory serves the Jgpz IV/70 was also overloaded by the large gun, which strained the suspesion of the front pair of road wheels and made steering difficult.

No, the Panzer IV/70 is the same thing as a Jagdpanzer IV, except for the better gun (the latter has the L46 or L48).

I don't think anybody knowns why they dropped the "Jagd" in the name but they did and it is the same casemat design as the Jagdpanzer. There was no vehicle designated Jagdpanzer IV/70.

The IV/70 did indeed have trouble with the long gun. Apart from too much pressure on the front wheels it was easy to stick the gun into the ground when crossing uneven terrain.

[iliketanks]

Thanks guys for the interesting info and discussion. BTW, define spot/splodge camo please.

[The Purist]

[QUOTE=Redwolf]I don't think anybody knowns why they dropped the "Jagd" in the name but they did and it is the same casemat design as the Jagdpanzer. There was no vehicle designated Jagdpanzer IV/70.
[\QUOTE]

Originally Posted by JML

There was not never Panzer IV armed with L70 gun, atleast not beyond prototype. There is confusion because Jagdpanzer IV:s with L70 gun were called by germans Pz IV/70, while those armed with L48 gun were called Jagdpanzer IV.

Thanks gentlemen,...but I'll admot I've never come across the JgPz IV/70 beong referred to as the Pz IV/70. I'm not saying that it was not the case only that I have never seen anything in print.

[STURMBOCK]

Im ok with golden colini its a good answer,no more insignas,no more time,only dark yellow color with ambush camo or with green and dark red stripes as my Kübelwagen (sorry the picture is too much heavy)