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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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  #31  
Old 01 Jun 13, 07:14
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Not taking Americans seriously. Eventually the parent must realize the kids want to leave.
We did and you are not nor would we ever want you to be our kids trust me on that.
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  #32  
Old 01 Jun 13, 07:15
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Yup and don't ransack and loot their homes and farms while you are doing it either! Paybacks are a bitch!!
Considering what the so called sons of liberty were doing me thinks the moral high ground is not something you can pretend to here.
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  #33  
Old 01 Jun 13, 14:40
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We did and you are not nor would we ever want you to be our kids trust me on that.
Wow...smacks of arrogance
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  #34  
Old 01 Jun 13, 14:53
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Considering what the so called sons of liberty were doing me thinks the moral high ground is not something you can pretend to here.
The moral high ground tends to belong to the victors.

But in an rebellion, the outsiders always pay double for any atrocity committed or even alleged.

And they were not 'so-called'; however bitter the actions taken (and in some respects this was a civil war), the end result was the shackles of a onarchy thrown off, and individual liberties created.

For all its faults, and there were more than a few, the American Revolution was one of the very few that did not ultimately result in some form of dictatorship.
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  #35  
Old 02 Jun 13, 05:48
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Wow...smacks of arrogance
Really how
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  #36  
Old 02 Jun 13, 05:53
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The moral high ground tends to belong to the victors.

But in an rebellion, the outsiders always pay double for any atrocity committed or even alleged.

And they were not 'so-called'; however bitter the actions taken (and in some respects this was a civil war), the end result was the shackles of a onarchy thrown off, and individual liberties created.

For all its faults, and there were more than a few, the American Revolution was one of the very few that did not ultimately result in some form of dictatorship.
I completely disagree Arnold. Instead you had rule by the Provincial Aristocracy, who were in power, many of whom were slave owners who railed at the British about liberating there slaves, with dreams of there own Republican style Empire in North America and the British Govt was in the way, Hence the invasion of Canada and what would have been miniority rule there etc.

In regards to worst British mistake I think it was the treaty with Indians and the set boundry lines. After that I think our cards were marked come what may.
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  #37  
Old 02 Jun 13, 15:38
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Originally Posted by History fan View Post
I completely disagree Arnold. Instead you had rule by the Provincial Aristocracy, who were in power, many of whom were slave owners who railed at the British about liberating there slaves, with dreams of there own Republican style Empire in North America and the British Govt was in the way, Hence the invasion of Canada and what would have been miniority rule there etc.

In regards to worst British mistake I think it was the treaty with Indians and the set boundry lines. After that I think our cards were marked come what may.
The British brought/allowed slavery in their American colonies in the first place and didn't outlaw the slave trade until ca 1807, over twenty years after the US won their independence and about the same time the US outlawed it.

Each colony did have its own legislature, but the governors were Royal governors appointed by the king.

And the colonies were not united in any meaningful way until after the Declaration of Independence in mid-1776, over a year after the shooting started.

The British mistake, or series of mistakes, was based on the war debt incurred during the Seven Years' War/French and Indian War of 1754-1763 (1756-1763 in Europe). That was the first in the series of colonial wars in North America that the British sent sizeable land and naval forces to North America to fight the French and their Indian allies since the colonial wars in North America began, each mirroring a conflict between France and England in Europe.

The British had every right to expect the Americans to help foot the bill, but they handled it in a ham-handed way-neglecting to explain the issues involved and merely leveling taxes, laws and proclamations that infuriated the Americans who had before been supporting and cheering British successes in both Europe and America against the French.

Thoughts of Canada being part of the United States only occurred after the shooting started in Massachusetts and elsewhere.

In short, both the king and Parliament blew it and caused a war that needn't have happened, at least not then. Trouble would have eventually come because of slavery, but that could also have been handled differently, but had to be settled by an American Civil War and 630,000 dead Americans.

Sincerely,
M
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  #38  
Old 02 Jun 13, 15:55
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We did and you are not nor would we ever want you to be our kids trust me on that.
I can't trust you on that because it has nothing to do with how you see it in 2013. It has everything to do with how King George saw it in 1776.
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  #39  
Old 02 Jun 13, 16:06
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Considering what the so called sons of liberty were doing me thinks the moral high ground is not something you can pretend to here.
I agree with you here. The Sons of Liberty were street thugs. They were all for the liberty of anyone who agreed with them but saw nothing wrong with acting the bully toward loyalists. Their property destruction in 1773 contributed in no way to the liberties I enjoy today. That was earned at places like Kings Mountain and Cowpens, not from the juvenille actions of the Boston Bully Boys .
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Old 02 Jun 13, 16:10
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
And they were not 'so-called'; however bitter the actions taken (and in some respects this was a civil war), the end result was the shackles of a onarchy thrown off, and individual liberties created.
Disagree with you here. My liberty is not the product of the immature actions of Boston street thugs and bullies that couldn't have been a hair on Daniel Morgan's scrotum.
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Old 02 Jun 13, 16:13
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Disagree with you here. My liberty is not the product of the immature actions of Boston street thugs and bullies.
Agree. There's a reason the British who fired on the thugs in Boston, the so-called 'Boston Massacre', got off when put on trial. John Adams was one of the lawyers who defended them.

The lesson from that episode is don't bring rocks and bottles wrapped in snowballs to a gunfight.

Sincerely,
M
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  #42  
Old 02 Jun 13, 16:15
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Not listening to the proposal Ben Franklin and Gen Howe came up with over a chess game in 1774 that proposed a model virtually identical to the current Commonwealth model whereby the colonies remained under the King as head of state but with their own local govenment.
Exactly. Once it became an "us versus them" situation things had deteriorated too far to recover. Had Britain invested more in making the colonies a partner rather than a subordinate they likely would have stayed part of Britain.
As it was the King saw the American colonies, as with other colonies, as little more than disposable income for Britain to be taxed and exploited for their wealth in allowing the crown to continue its intrigues in Europe and at home. That in itself was a weakness of having a King at all. Instead of trying to make colonies, particularly those like in the Americas where they were virtually 100% persons from Europe, a partner and part of Britain they remained in a second class citizen status that eventually would lead to their wanting to break away from the homeland and raise their own self-worth.
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Old 03 Jun 13, 06:58
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Great Britain also generally left the colonies alone before the French and Indian War to govern themselves (with the exception of the Royal Governors who had taken over from Lords Proprietors and the 'companies' that governed the colonies in the early days), a type of 'benign neglect' intending them to increase the wealth of the mother country.

The infusion of military and naval presence on a then-unprecedented scale, and the cost of it, plus new laws such as the Proclamation of 1763 (which were enthusiastically ignored by the Americans) brought a new era to the colonies, one they believed was oppressive and unfairly put on the colonies, whose people considered themselves Englishmen with all the rights of Englishmen, and then the troubles began.

British high-handedness and American outrage started the problems which then had to be settled with a shooting war.

Sincerely,
M
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  #44  
Old 03 Jun 13, 13:16
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I completely disagree Arnold. Instead you had rule by the Provincial Aristocracy, who were in power, many of whom were slave owners who railed at the British about liberating there slaves, with dreams of there own Republican style Empire in North America and the British Govt was in the way, Hence the invasion of Canada and what would have been miniority rule there etc.

In regards to worst British mistake I think it was the treaty with Indians and the set boundry lines. After that I think our cards were marked come what may.
You don't get it: we have/had no aristocracy. The rule of law awarded no man a privilidge based upon birth. Yes, the rich had greater influence than the poor, but there were no legal barriers to becoming rich.

This is the sort of mindset that cost the Brits so dearly in this period: the belief that their system was innately superior, and that the rebels were fighting to change the design of a flag.

Your system was not, and is not, superior. America was settled by men who dislike the idea of nobility (in the sense of lineage) and monarchy. They especially (still true today) resent being told what to do by anyone, especially outsiders.

The average rebel did not care a whit about slavery or what rich men thought. What he cared about was some fat mad bastard sitting thousands of miles away telling him what to do, and sending a bunch of forgieners to enforce it.
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Old 03 Jun 13, 13:21
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Disagree with you here. My liberty is not the product of the immature actions of Boston street thugs and bullies that couldn't have been a hair on Daniel Morgan's scrotum.
I have no knowledge of, nor interest in, Daniel Morgan's scrotum. Nor do I believe that it had anything to do with the topic at hand.

You got your liberty the same way we all did. And if it weren't for those 'street thungs' drawing attention to various issues, and prompting British reprisals, Daniel Morgan would likely have spent his life as a British subject.

Before you have action, you have media. True then, true now.
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