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Warfare Through the Ages Roman, Greek, Japanese, etc. Topics cover all manner of pre-modern warfare and empire-building and crushing.

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  #46  
Old 21 Jun 07, 13:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pergite View Post
Of course they celebrated Christmas, but it was called Yule (at least by the Germans and Scandinavians), which is the original name of the holiday before it was taken over by christian beliefes. AFAIK there are nothing that supports that Jesus was born on "Christmas", that time of year where however the time for one of the greates feasts, so I guess the timing suited the church well. Heck, most "Christmas" traditions are left overs from the pagan times, just think about it.

The tree, Evergreen was considered magic because it never lost its leaves so it had a central place around that time of year, because it was then the darkness and evil was at its peak, and every mean of protection where important.

I belive the christmas tree got its modern shape in Germany around 1500 if I am not mistaken.

I have no clue about balls and celts though...
No the Celts didn't celebrate Christmas, because when the Celts lived, Jesus wasn't even born yet...Only part of the Old Testament was written by then...

But I know what you mean Pergite...

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  #47  
Old 21 Jun 07, 13:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratego View Post
The question is: Where does the practice of hanging balls in the Christmas tree come from?
Just a ball, or any sort of ornament?

Good one... I've been racking my brain and can't come up with anything even resembling a reasonable guess. The Celts were very family-oriented, so maybe as a comemmoration of ancestors?
  #48  
Old 21 Jun 07, 13:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pergite View Post
Isnt that debunked as a popular myth, based on that there are alot of inconsistencies and no real historic backing? AFAIK threre are some french records of English troops waving their fingers but that is long before Agincourt, and even the Romans had something to do with the meaning of the fingers.
Edit:
Why dont I led Wikipedia speak my mind...
This may be possible, but then again, just because the Romans, the Germans the Sumerians or the Huns used this sign, it doesn't mean that they had the same symbolism !!!
May I add also that it seems logical for the French to cut off the fingers of the Welsh bowmen, because of the fear they brought to the French armies and knights !
But then again, if they wanted to make sure that they would never use a bow or a sword anymore, why didn't they poke their eyes out instead?????
I believe that the given reason about the bowmen is true...if not official then unofficial. As a bowmen I can see myself do the same thing against the French after winning a battle...or in trying to taunt them to take flight (just by showing the sign) !!!!



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  #49  
Old 21 Jun 07, 13:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrorshades View Post
Just a ball, or any sort of ornament?

Good one... I've been racking my brain and can't come up with anything even resembling a reasonable guess. The Celts were very family-oriented, so maybe as a comemmoration of ancestors?
The Celts did not hang up balls...mirrorshades that's right !...Instead they hung up shiny stuff, such as pieces of mirrors and pieces of glass !!!!

Keep on guessing, If i can give a hint I will...



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  #50  
Old 21 Jun 07, 13:45
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this a real head scratcher, could it be to scare away demons?.
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  #51  
Old 21 Jun 07, 15:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike brown View Post
this a real head scratcher, could it be to scare away demons?.
Ooooh, mike....you are on the right trail...



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  #52  
Old 21 Jun 07, 16:01
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To scare away other Celts? :)
  #53  
Old 21 Jun 07, 16:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pergite View Post
Isnt that debunked as a popular myth, based on that there are alot of inconsistencies and no real historic backing? AFAIK threre are some french records of English troops waving their fingers but that is long before Agincourt, and even the Romans had something to do with the meaning of the fingers.

Edit:
Why dont I led Wikipedia speak my mind:
The Welsh archers were very popular ever since the Anglo-Scottish wars and most certainly after the Battle of Crécy in 1346 ! The archers were so in demand, that King Edward forbade all the sports in his kingdom instead of archery ! All young kids were supposed to play with bow and arrow...
In the early years of thE Hundred Years War, because there was a dire need for archers (because until then only the Welsh were professional archers) the Welsh archers were ransomed ! Only thing is no great amounts of prisoners, because the French lost almost every battle and therefore there were practically no prisoners to be ransomed...
I also have my doubts regarding the article on Francois Rabelais...where did he get the information from if he is the first to write about it? He must have got it somewhere...
As for the historian Francois Froissart: Since he mentions the V sign, before the battle of Agincourt (since he had passed away by then), this is an indication that the use of the V sign was used by the archers BEFORE the battle of Agincourt ! Thus already in the first years of the war...as I mentioned above....



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  #54  
Old 21 Jun 07, 17:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pergite View Post
I belive the christmas tree got its modern shape in Germany around 1500 if I am not mistaken.
You are indeed mistaken (partly!!), the first Christmas tree is generally considered as being here in Latvia in 1510,but the traditions are a mish mash from all over here and Northern Germany.

A few details HERE
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  #55  
Old 21 Jun 07, 17:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratego View Post
I will try to clarify Half Pint...

The question is: Where does the practice of hanging balls in the Christmas tree come from?



Greets,
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Good question , but it is very tempting to make a 'Christmas balls' joke . There is a song titled exactly that the radio stations
around here play every Christmas .
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  #56  
Old 21 Jun 07, 20:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolster View Post
You are indeed mistaken (partly!!), the first Christmas tree is generally considered as being here in Latvia in 1510,but the traditions are a mish mash from all over here and Northern Germany.

A few details HERE
The first time a fir tree was recognised as a Christian symbol was when St. Boniface came across a group of German pagans worshipping an oak tree. In anger he was said to have chopped down the oak tree and in its place sprang a fir tree.
  #57  
Old 21 Jun 07, 23:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrorshades View Post
My understanding is that December 25 is not meant to represent the actual date of his birth; rather, it was the date chosen by the early church to commemorate the birth, since the actual date itself is unknown (and in all probability, un-knowable).
How about this.

Emperor Constantine was the first Roman Emperor, and summoned the First Council of Nicaea.

Before he publicly announced his Christianity he had been a follower of the god Sol Invictus – The Unconquered Sun (whose depiction on the reverse of Constantine’s coins).

December 25th was a festival known as “The birthday of The Unconquered Sun”.
  #58  
Old 22 Jun 07, 02:33
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Well the Celts supposedly had a thing for decorating groves and other religious sites with heads.
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  #59  
Old 22 Jun 07, 07:13
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to scare away wild woodland animals such as wolves?.
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  #60  
Old 22 Jun 07, 07:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike brown View Post
to scare away wild woodland animals such as wolves?.
Mike...stay on the previous track ! You were going the right way !!!!



Greets,
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