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RKKA (The Russian Army) in World War II Discuss the Russian armed forces in World War II. Hosted by our resident Russian expert, AMVAS. Please visit his RKKA in WW2 Website.

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  #1  
Old 07 Jun 06, 12:07
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Landings at Grigorevka, Sept 22nd 1941

I will be developing a map for RO:Ost based on the landing outside Odessa on the night in question - can anyone point me at some detailed maps of the area?

I am also looking on the worldwar2.ro forums as well, but would appreciate any help from this direction.
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  #2  
Old 07 Jun 06, 12:29
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Here is one from the RKKA site
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Odessa_41.jpg (82.4 KB, 27 views)
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  #3  
Old 08 Jun 06, 05:19
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The most detailed scheme I have for now is
http://www.rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.c...dessa_1_41.jpg

Probably somewhere in my endless storages I have topographic map of this region. (Of course for the period much later than year 1941)

I never saw too detailed schemes for this operation. Only too general ones...
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Old 26 Jun 06, 07:20
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Thanks for these guys - I had actually seen the one you put up tigersqn - it's a little too large-scale for a Red Orchestra map but thanks anyways.

The other one is getting to the kinda scale I need. The Worldwar2.ro guy, Dragos, has some incredible 1:100,000 Romanian maps of the area - showing disposition of artillery batteries etc. etc. but not actually displaying the operations of that night so I guess I'm going to have to add the rider, "this map may contain traces of speculation" to RO-Grigoryevka.

Several other questions interest me if I am to make this map as accurate as possible.

1 - Did the Russian Black Sea fleet provide barrages in support of the landings or were they made covertly?

2 - what kind of ships were used for the actual landings? Are there any extant photos of such vessels?

3 - Did the Romanian coastal batteries retaliate/ try and suppress the landing?

4 - Did Russian Naval infantry use the Maxim 1910 in their standard TO&E?

Last edited by Nestor Makhno; 26 Jun 06 at 11:57..
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Old 26 Jun 06, 07:28
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Exclamation

Wow!! I just noticed a paradrop symbol to the north of the landing zone!!!!

What happened there? Any sources?

I also read some of the links to Russian sites about the assault and it appears that the Russian Fleet and coastal batteries were involved in 'softening up' the areas assaulted.

Last edited by Nestor Makhno; 26 Jun 06 at 11:53..
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  #6  
Old 27 Jun 06, 13:54
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Nestor,
I found quite detailed description of this operation. It contains answers for some of your questions.
If I'm able I'll translate this one..

Just now will say landing party was 23 men. They acted individually as wreckers

Alex
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Old 28 Jun 06, 11:32
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At the end of September 1941 situation in Odessa became hard and the command of the Odessa Defensive Region decided to perform counter-attack in the Eastern sector. The 421st , 157th Rfl. Div. were taken for this one. Also a plan of landing operation in Grigoryevka area was worked out by the Black Sea Fleet Command. The 3rd Marine Regiment was provided for this operation (commander: Capt. K.M. Koren’, Commissar: Battalion commissar I.A. Slesarev).
Operation was guided by the Coastal Army commander – Lt. General. G.P. Safronov. His plan was the next:
1. In daytime of Sept. 21 and at night on Sept. 22 Navy aviation needs to bomb enemy airfields and groups of enemy troops to prevent their activities.
2. Ships of the fleet bombards enemy troops preparing pre-conditions for landing operation.
3. After short artillery bombardment from ships the 3rd Marine Rgt. lands in Adzharlyksky estuary area near Grigiryevka. Ships moves fire in the depth of enemy defensive positions and supports landing party during all the day Sept. 22.
4. The 3rd Marines Regt. by 5:00 having finished landing operation need to capture Tchebanka area, 57.3 hill, Starya Dofinovka, Novaya Dofinovka, where have to set in defense providing supplement to the forces performing the main blow.
5. Simultaneously with landing operation, the troops of the Odessa Defensive Region performs an offensive in the Eastern Sector having mission to force enemy to retreat and to prevent artillery fire against Odessa from NE direction.
6. Fighter air forces supports landing party and protect ships from air attacks.
7. A group of paratroopers needed to be landed for wrecking activities (breaking communications and causing panic in enemy’s rears)

A ship detachment for the landing operation included:
Cruisers: “Krasnyi Kavkaz”, “Krasnyi Krym”;
Destroyers: “Boykiy”, “Bezuprechnyi”, “Frunze”
Landing detachment included: gunboat “Krasnaya Gruzia”, towboat “Alupka”, 22 cutters and 11 long boats from Odessa. Air supplement was provided by air regiment of the Odessa Defensive Region and the Black Sea Fleet Aircraft Brigade based on the Crimean airfields.
The landing operation was guided by the Fleet squadron commander rear-admiral L.A. Vladimirskiy.
On the way to Odessa destroyer “Frunze” with rear-admiral L.A. Vladimirskiy onboard was attacked by German diving bombers. The ship was damaged and needed to run aground. Vladimirsky was slightly wounded. All documents for landing operation were lost.
That time cruisers and destroyers of the landing detachment by 13:30 Sept. 21 loaded the landing party (1617 men) onboard in Kazachya bay of Sevastopol and weighted anchors at 13:30. At 21:10 ships reached approaching point of the Odessa navy base. Approx at 23:00 the detachment commander Capt. 1st rank S. G. Gorshkov received radiogram from the Fleet Commander F.S. Oktiabrskiy with order to proceed operation and to start landing at 1:00 Sept. 22 and to finish at 3:00. Gorshkov was prescribed to guide the operation instead of Vladimirskyi, which fate was unknown that time for the Fleet commander.
At 1:20 detachment reached the zone of landing, but because of lost documents for operation landing boats from Odessa were late. The ships berthed on a 15 cable distance from the coast and started landing operation without waiting for small ships from Odessa. At the same time they started artillery bombardment of the coast. At 1:30 4-5 north from Shicli from TB-3 bomber of Starshiy Lt. S. Gavrilov was landed a group of paratroopers (23 volunteers).
Naval landing operation started almost simultaneously with paratroopers dropping.
Gunboat “Krasnaya Gruzia” was planned to be used as reference point for landing zone and to support landing part from minimal distance, but it arrived together with cutters 1hr after operation had started. It loaded landing party from the “Krashyi Kavkaz”, but couldn’t approach the beach less than 3 cable distance and needed to reload landing party to long boats.
Arrived patrol boats increased the speed of landing operation and by 5:10 it was finished.
The cruisers started an orderly withdrawal at 4:00 and arrived in Sevastopol at 16:30.
Destroyers under command of the Capt. 2nd rank B.A. Permsiy (on destroyer “Besposhchadnyi”, which arrived in Odessa in transport convoy) were left for artillery support of the landing party.
Landing operation was a surprise for the enemy and its resistance was weak. Activity of landing party, paratroopers, aircraft attacks against Baden and Zeltsy airfields and against Alexandrovka, sovkhoz Ilyichevka, Sverdlovo, Gildendorf put enemies out of countenance.
The company of Lt. I.D. Tcharupa of the 3rd Battalion was the first to land. Nazis tried to throw them off the beach but all their attacks were parried by rifle and machinegun fire of marines. Machine gunner private N.I. Petrenko distinguished himself in parrying of these attacks. When he was wounded he was substituted by glavnyi starshina D.S. Obladze.
After the success of the first company two others were landed together with battalion commander Starshiy Lieutenant I.F. Matvienko and commissar – Politruk P.S. Prokhorov. Corrective posts and mortar battery followed them.
The 3rd battalion was ordered to capture Grigoryevka. Frontal attack was impossible due to the heavy fire. Lt Tcharupa diverted attraction of enemy by strong fire of a small group of soldiers left in front of the settlement and the main group outflanked it and overran the enemy by sudden bayonet thrust. Crashing defeat of the enemy garrison was finished after two other companies arrived. Marines captured a heavy artillery battery near Grigoryevka.
The 1st Battalion of the Starshiy Lieutenant B.P. Mikhailov followed the 3rd and performed attacks against Tchebanka and Novaya Dofinovka trying to unite with the 421st Rfl. Div. A strong resistance was met in Tchebanka, which could be overcome only with the help of artillery fire from destroyers.
Approx. at 13:00 Sept 22 diving bombers dropped 36 bombs on the “Bezuprechnyi” destroyer and managed to make serious damages (two stokeholds and left engine were flooded). The ship was towed to Odessa. At 17:30 19 diving bombers attacked “Besposhchadnyi” by 84 bombs. There were no direct hits, but the ship got serious damages from close explosions and went to Odessa. “Boykiy” also got slight damages from aviation attacks.
The 3rd Marines Regiment managed to fulfill its mission by 18:00 Sept. 22 and reached the line: Tchebanka, hill 57.3, Novaya Dofinovka and united with the 421st Rfl. Division in the morning Sept, 23 in Voroshilov sovkhoz area.

As a result of this offensive enemy lost ~2,000 manpower, our troops captured 83 guns, 6 tanks, ~2,000 rifles and submachineguns, many other equipment

Regards,
Alex
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Old 29 Jun 06, 06:19
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Blagodaryu - vy molodyets!!!
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Old 29 Jun 06, 07:22
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Originally Posted by Nestor Makhno
Blagodaryu - vy molodyets!!!
I know



Welcome...
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Old 20 Jan 08, 10:57
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I believe this mission is portrayed in the map called Odessa Reprieve in CM:BtB.
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Old 20 Jan 08, 14:17
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Blagodaryu - vy molodyets!!!
Gaspodin Nestor, ja ne panjemajo, vy gavaritje pa anglanski pan?
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Old 20 Jan 08, 15:06
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Gaspodin Nestor, ja ne panjemajo, vy gavaritje pa anglanski pan?
Molodyets can be very hard to translate while conveying the meaning. It could basically mean a young person, or youth, but it is said in a way that means something like he's "quite a guy", "a fine young man", "clever person" etc. It is used generally to recognize someone's good deed or performance.
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Old 20 Jan 08, 15:56
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This landing was done against Romanian 4th Army, behind the 15th Inf.Div. and against the depleted 13th Inf Div which held 10km with 4 battalions only.
From "Reluctant Axis", III/Stuka Geshwader and Grupaera Aeriana de Lupta (Romanian Air Force) sunk Frunze, a gunboat and a tug. The 2 destroyers named above are said damaged.
Losses are numbered at 1300.
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Old 20 Jan 08, 16:52
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Molodyets can be very hard to translate while conveying the meaning. It could basically mean a young person, or youth, but it is said in a way that means something like he's "quite a guy", "a fine young man", "clever person" etc. It is used generally to recognize someone's good deed or performance.
Thanks. Spassiba gaspodin Slavyanski.
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Old 20 Jan 08, 17:48
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Thanks. Spassiba gaspodin Slavyanski.
Gospodin and Gospozha aren't really used anymore since the revolution replaced them with Tovarisch. Now they basically don't use anything(save for 'young man/woman), which makes sense because everyone in Moscow is basically trying to screw over everyone else.

'Pan' is an honorific term used in Polish, Czech(probably Slovak), and Ukrainian.
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