Milosevic dead?

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by fatih

Achilles,

Do you have respect for Adolf Hitler or Stalin?

Let's honor this guy who killed many people in the center of Europe.

Fatih

Fatih,

There are some basic differences concerning this issue:

1. If by killing Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic or Eliézer Niyitegeka, I would have done a service to the humanity, then I would have killed them without hesitation.

2. If then, I stood next to the dead cadaver of one of these criminals, I wouldn't dance around it, or burnt it, or drag it in the streets of my hometown... I would have buried it.
It is called, respect for the dead, and I presume it is something common for most of the religions. This is why, I object when someones says that he is happy because someone else just died...

3. The are international law conventions and humanitarian values... you just don't leave someone die in the prison (at least in the civilized countries).

Originally Posted by fatih

Achilles,

I am sorry my friend but I won't buy that so called Kurdish and Armenian genocide tales. My Armenian and Kurdish friends here in Turkey don't either.
This stories have nothing to do with this topic also. (I am not intended to start a mini Balkan War here, so I won't start to talk about Turkish genocide stories. I am also surprised that in your genocide list, you have not mentioned the greatest genocide in history: The Jewish Genocide.)

I am damn sure that he won't rest in peace.Fatih

Actually, I think that the biggest genocide in history was connected with your ancestors, Genghis Khan / Tamerlane (up ot 60 millions??),
Then we have the longest genocide, the one of the native Americans (Maya, Aztec, etc...), which started in 1492, when Columbus made the first contact with the "Indians" (and is still active, deep inside the jungles of Mexico and Amazon/Brazil)...

Concerning the Armenian genocide, go and visit the

Web Genocide Documentation Centre
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide.htm

and you may find there info concerning the Jewish holocaust, Rwanda and Burundi, Sierra Leone, Yugoslav Wars, Cambodia AND the Armenian Genocide.

The Armenian Genocide has been recognized by almost all western parliaments.

Just read a part of some reports...

The atrocities committed were numerous and barbarous. The bands of Kurds and Chetes, had, along with other various groups of Turkish irregulars, been waging a form of total war throughout the nineteenth century in the Caucasian border regions. The Ottoman army found it cheaper to provide these bands with weapons to patrol the frontier regions, and grant them carte blanche to forage, than to provide regular military units for that purpose. A form of anarchic warfare prevailed in the areas that were inhabited by some of the Armenian population. As Reid notes, "soldiers were encouraged to commit even more terrible deeds, because corrupt generals refused to issue supplies, so that they could sell them back to the government for profit. This corruption, plus the government's intention to economize, created the circumstances that encouraged plundering and eventually murder." (p.2053)

Whilst the circumstances I outlined earlier translated the genocidal thought into a planned genocide, the character of the Turkish troops facilitated its implementation. This applied particularly to the irregular fighting bands in the Eastern region. Reid concludes that the "cause of all the atrocities and finally the genocide of 1915-18, was the aggressive personality moulded by the experience of the perpetual offensive raid." These troops developed an ideology and sentiments of total hatred towards the Christian inhabitants of the area. Their aggressiveness, their total disregard of any norms of civilized discourse, of any notions of morality, and their failure to draw a line between the permissible and impermissible regarding this outgroup, is not dissimilar from the conditions that prevailed during the American civil war in the border regions of Kansas, Texas and Missouri. The conditions in both areas spawned a similar type of warrior-character. As Richard Brownlee noted in his Gray Ghosts of the Confederacy, in these border areas there emerged gangs of irregulars: "Led by desperate men such as William C Quantrill, Bill Anderson, George Todd...the guerrillas, most of them only boys, fought a total war. West of the Mississippi they plunged a fairly stable, congenial, and conservative society into intense partisan conflict that was felt by every man, woman and child. This was not a war of great armies and captains; this was bloody local insurrection, a war between friends and neighbours... Here organized bands of men killed each other and the civil population". (pp.3-4)

So was it, too, in the border areas of the Caucasus. The only major difference being that in the latter region there was a complete absence of restraints. At least during the American Civil War the marauding bands of guerrillas generally left the women and children alone. Describing a raid by a Kurdish chieftain in 1877-78, Reid noted: "At every Christian village along the way...[the] band committed atrocities. ... The Kurds raped women and children trapped in the church of Avgugli. Women were raped at Latwantz and Shahbaghi. ...At one place, the new bride of a priest was raped repeatedly by the raiders, while her husband, the priest watched her torment. The priest saw her die before his eyes, and then he himself was killed after being mutilated terribly." (pp.2055-56)

This pattern was repeated in the 1915-18 massacres. Women were repeatedly raped. Some were carried of into slavery. Hofmann notes that the treatment of pregnant women with new-born babies was particularly pitiless. This seems to be a characteristic killing mode of many situations of mass killings, including the Holocaust, the Vietnam War, the killings of communists in Indonesia in the 1960s, and elsewhere.

Anyone could attack the Armenians en route with impunity. A German who witnessed events at Aleppo, "reported corpses of violated women, lying about naked in heaps on the railway embankment at Tell-Abiad and Ras-el-Ain. Many of them had clubs pushed up their anus. Another...had seen Turks tie Armenian men together, fire several volleys of small shot into the human mass with fowling pieces and go off laughing while their victims perished in frightful convulsions. Other men had their hands tied behind their backs and were rolled down steep cliffs. Women were standing below and they slashed at those who had rolled down with knives until they were dead. The German consul from Mosul related that...in many places on the road from Mosul to Aleppo, he had seen children's hands lying hacked off in such numbers that one could have paved the road with them. At the German hospital at Urfa there was a little girl who had had both her hands hacked off". (Hofmann, pp.77-78) Other groups were herded into caves, having been soaked in petrol. This was then ignited. Children today still search in these caves, hoping to find gold, either wedding rings or teeth. (Ternon, p.119) These witnesses spared their readers and listeners details of the worst atrocities.

The deportees were sent to areas where there were few places of settlement, and where the land could not possibly sustain the numbers despatched there. It was expected that most of them would die. A League of Assistance report described their plight: "The suffering of these poor people, most of whom are ill because of lack of food and ill-treatment, can hardly be conveyed in mere words. ...The living leapt into a mass grave, begging to be buried too and thus be spared such terrible suffering. ...At the same time people suffer the most brutal ill-treatment at the hands of the Turkish gendarmes who have no compunction about extorting from their unfortunate victims anything which is of any value in their eyes". (Hofmann, p.79) In many of the camps, the inmates were systematically slaughtered. The German Consul in Aleppo reported that at the Ras-ul-ain concentration camp about 300 to 500 persons were taken 10 km from the camp and slain. The bodies were then thrown into the river.

*****************

Thus ended the Armenian problem in Turkey. In the course of the First World War two thirds of Turkey's 2,100,000 Armenians were killed. Of the remainder, many were exiled, and the rest lived in fear. Although the victorious allies had pledged to try the Turkish leaders responsible, little was done in comparison with the scale of the atrocities that had been encouraged and permitted. Some sixty-odd high-ranking officials were prosecuted before a military tribunal established by the Turkish government. Kemal-Bey, who had been a provincial governor, was sentenced to death and publicly hanged in Constantinople. Four of the leaders of the war-time government were sentenced to death in absentia. They had fled to either Russia or Germany. (New York Review of Books, October 7, 1993/Istvan Deak)

Speaking of genocide tales... go and ask your friends who was Mehmet Kemâl Beğ ( Mehmet Kemal Bey, 1885-1919).
Asked them, why in 8 April 1919, Mehmet Kemal Bey, accused of Armenian massacre has been sentenced to death by a Turkish court martial under the authority of the Ottoman (Turk) General Mustafa Paşa.
Mehmet Kemal Bey was executed in Beyazit, Constantinople, the 10 April 1919.

Do you also mention Mehmet Kemal Bey, inside this "tale" for the Armenian Genocide?
I am sure that the Serbian nationalists will do the same thing concerning the "tale" of the Yugoslav genocide by Milosevic..
The Tutsis will do the same thing concerning the "tale" of the Hutu genocide by Eliézer Niyitegeka...
And of course, the neo-nazis will do the same thing concerning the "tale" of the Jewish holocaust by Hitler.
For some biased people, the aboves are just "tales"...

Mehmet Kemal Bey

http://www.turquie-memoire.com/Bogazliyan_Kemal.html

http://www.turquie-memoire.com/proces.html

Here are some nice photos of the Armenian tale...

http://www.genocide1915.info/pictures.asp

cheers,
Achilles

[Admiral]

I will certainly be content when bin Laden meets his doom.

I'm certain there are those equally as content of Milosevics demise.

I shall judge them not...

[fatih]

Originally Posted by Achilles

Fatih,

There are some basic differences in this issue:

1. If by killing Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic or Eliézer Niyitegeka, I would have done a service to the humanity, then I would have killed them without hesitation.

2. If then, I stood next to the dead cadaver of one of these criminals, I wouldn't dance around it, or burnt it, or drag it in the streets of my hometown... I would have buried it.
It is called, respect for the dead, and I presume it is something common for most of the religions. This is why, I object when someones says that he is happy because someone else just died...

3. The are international law conventions and humanitarian values... you just don't leave someone die in the prison (at least in the civilized countries).

These are your thoughts. I am sure you think the same way for that so called war criminal Mehmet Kemal Bey. You respect him. Don't you?

But I must say, your thoughts about Milosevic reminded me the posts in an American neo-nazi which I accidentaly rushed in while googling about Milosevic.

Actually, I think that the biggest genocide in history was connected with your ancestors, Genghis Khan / Tamerlane (up ot 60 millions??),

Genghiz Khan is not my ancestor, nor the Turks'. He was Mongol. Turks are not. Also, my family has no Turkic origins. We are Circassian. My grandparents immigrated from Northern Caucasus in 1878.
You know why they came to Anatolia? They escaped the Russian Army burning Muslim villages and killing innocent people. They had to leave their homelands. Because they were converted to Islam after the Turks conquered the Caucasus.

Regarding the second part of your post, I will say nothing against your quotations which are full of mistakes. Because it has nothing to do with this topic. So please don't force me to react. You and I have no right to disturb people with that kind of misplaced discussions.

Regards
Fatih

[fatih]

Originally Posted by Admiral

[CENTER]I will certainly be content when bin Laden meets his doom.

Someday my friend, someday.
Today Milosevic, tomorrow Bin Laden.

Regards
Fatih

[Achilles]

My friend fatih,

Originally Posted by fatih

These are your thoughts. I am sure you think the same way for that so called war criminal Mehmet Kemal Bey. You respect him. Don't you?

But I must say, your thoughts about Milosevic reminded me the posts in an American neo-nazi which I accidentaly rushed in while googling about Milosevic.Fatih

Really ???

Is this how the American Neo-nazi thinks about Milosevic??

Look what I think for him, from what I posted in this thread

Originally Posted by Achilles

If by killing Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic or Eliézer Niyitegeka, I would have done a service to the humanity, then I would have killed them without hesitation.

Originally Posted by Achilles

The only thing that these morons have achieved is to elevate a corrupted ex-communist Serbian dictator, as a legendary martyr of the Serbian nationalism.

I think that here you have tried to offend me by comparing my thoughts (about Christian morality and humans values) with the ones of a despised moron (American Neo-Nazi).

So unless you present me the quotes of my thoughts and the post of that so-called American Neo-Nazi... you should apologised for offending me. (by comparing me with a Neo-Nazi).

Originally Posted by fatih

These are your thoughts. I am sure you think the same way for that so called war criminal Mehmet Kemal Bey. You respect him. Don't you?

I don't respect him, but I am not happy because he is dead...
Btw, I pray to God that the war criminal Mehmet Kemal Bey, will rest in peace.
I am Christian...

Originally Posted by fatih

Genghiz Khan is not my ancestor, nor the Turks'. He was Mongol. Turks are not. Also, my family has no Turkic origins. We are Circassian. My grandparents immigrated from Northern Caucasus in 1878.
You know why they came to Anatolia? They escaped the Russian Army burning Muslim villages and killing innocent people. They had to leave their homelands. Because they were converted to Islam after the Turks conquered the Caucasus.

Regards
Fatih

Why??
Do you have anything against the Mongol civilization??

Only by the sound of your language, you should understand that the Turks' origin is nothern Mongolia.

Anyway, just look what an official Turkish site is saying about the history of the Turkish nation...

http://www.turkishodyssey.com/turkey...y/history3.htm

Turks, or Turkic peoples, are the principal descendants of large bands of nomads who roamed in the Altai Mountains (and thus are also called the Altaic peoples) in northern Mongolia and on the steppes of Central Asia during the early centuries of the Christian era. Their language is a branch of the Ural-Altaic family. Physically, most of the Turkic peoples resemble the Mongols, although those of the West have been so mixed with native peoples that they cannot be distinguished from other Mediterranean ethnic groups. The original Central Asian Turkic nomads established their first great empire in the 6CAD, a nomadic confederation that they called Gokturk meaning "Sky Turk".Shamanistic in religion and tribal in organization, Gokturks broke up in the 7C. The Eastern part of the confederation became assimilated with the Chinese civilization and gave rise to the Mongols. The Western part contracted and was ultimately influenced by the Islamic civilization of the Middle East.The Uighur remained in northern Mongolia and the Kirgiz wandered in the steppes to the north. The Oguz Turks, called the Turkmen (Turkoman) in Europe, dominated the area between Mongolia and Transoxiania, where contacts with Moslem missionaries, merchants and warriors led to further assimilation.Under the leadership of the Seljuk warrior family, the Oguz tribes entered Iran and then other parts of the Middle East. They went as raiders and mercenaries in service of the weakening Abbasid caliphs and also were hired by many towns to provide defenses against the anarchical conditions of the time.In the meantime, in Central Asia the Kirgiz pushed the Uighur out of Mongolia in the late 9C. The Uighur moved south, into northern China and west into Transoxiania. The Kirgiz also moved, finally settling in the mountains of what is now the Commonwealth of Independent States, where they remain today. The Mongols of northern China were formed into a powerful military confederation under the leadership of Genghis Khan about 1200 AD. They conquered China and the Asian steppes between northern China and Transoxiania and by the middle of the 13C had invaded and conquered the Seljuk-Abbasid Middle East as well as Anatolia. The Mongols brought substantial devastation while at the same time, however, they introduced Christian and Buddhist elements from Central Asia and established trade and cultural relations between the Middle East and China.

THE SELJUK PERIOD
Seljuk Turks Period (1071-1243 AD)

The Oguz Turks, under the leadership of Tugrul Bey and Cagri Bey, (the grandsons of Seljuk), subdued Horasan and defeated the Ghaznavids in the Dandanakan Battle and established the Great Seljuk Empire in 1040 AD. In 1071 Alparslan defeated the Byzantine emperor in the Battle of Manzikert which marked the beginning of the period of Turks and that of Islam in Anatolia. It was following this date that the Turks fully conquered the whole of Anatolia and established the Anatolian Seljuk State as part of the Great Seljuk Empire.

cheers mate,
Achilles

[fatih]

Really ???
Is this how the American Neo-nazi thinks about Milosevic??

Yep. They all respect him like you do.
Nobody but they do. I have been visiting many forums and I haven't seen a good compassionate Christian like you. I haven't seen any christians out there respecting and saying their RIP wishes for this war criminal.
Our forum members here also have no respect nor mercy for him. You can read what they had written. That doesen't make them non-christians. So please stop this "I am Christian" stuff.

I think that here you have tried to offend me by comparing my thoughts (about Christian morality and humans values) with the ones of a despised moron (American Neo-Nazi).
So unless you present me the quotes of my thoughts and the post of that so-called American Neo-Nazi... you should apologised for offending me. (by comparing me with a Neo-Nazi).

I won't apologise you.
I didn't try to offend you by my claims, like you didn't try to offend me by bringing up that so called genocide stuff.
I can send you the link by PM. Posting this racist link here may irritate some of our members.

From that link you have posted(By the way, it is not an official site):

Physically, most of the Turkic peoples resemble the Mongols, although those of the West have been so mixed with native peoples that they cannot be distinguished from other Mediterranean ethnic groups.

They resemble the Mongols. Not they are Mongols.
You have probably seen many Turks. Did they look like Mongols?

Why??
Do you have anything against the Mongol civilization??

I have never met one. But I know they were once great fighters.

I quit from this discussion. Please PM me for your further comments. This started to become off-topic.

My regards to good old Hellas
Fatih

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Achilles

Shame on you, when someone ( even the worst criminal ) is dead ( died only few hours ago ) you shouldn't say things like these... it's not worthy of our Christian morality.

Thanks, but I don't need a lecture on Christian morality. I have, and will continue to pray for his soul, but that doesn't change the acts he committed on this earth. It is not up to me to forgive him -- he never wronged me and I have no claim on him. He will need to seek forgiveness for his heinous crimes on the other side from the one who died for all of our sins.

[Achilles]

My friend fatih,

Originally Posted by fatih

Yep. They all respect him like you do.
Nobody but they do. I have been visiting many forums and I haven't seen a good compassionate Christian like you. I haven't seen any Christians out there respecting and saying their RIP wishes for this war criminal.

Again you are doing the same mistake... can you find any quotation from my posts where I say that I respect Milosevic??
The answer is NO !!
You are doing this in purpose... (but I don't understand why...)

Do you think that this post of mine, shows any respect for Milosevic??

Originally Posted by Achilles

The only thing that these morons have achieved is to elevate a corrupted ex-communist Serbian dictator, as a legendary martyr of the Serbian nationalism.

I don't respect Milosevic, because he was a war Criminal!
But I am not happy because he died... nor I wish him to burn in hell...
I simply, wish that God will rest him in peace.

Anyway, since you are Muslim, I have to explain you what is the difference between the Christian religion and other religions.
Our god, Jesus Christ, forgave the people who crucified him, and our religion teaches us to forgive our enemies...
Perhaps then, we would live in a better society, without wars and crimes...

Originally Posted by fatih

You have probably seen many Turks. Did they look like Mongols?

Some of them yes, they look like Mongols (central Turkey).
Some others look like Greeks and some others like Slavs.

Originally Posted by fatih

I have never met one. But I know they were once great fighters.

Same like the Turks... very good fighters... indeed.

Turks, or Turkic peoples, are the principal descendants of large bands of nomads who roamed in the Altai Mountains (and thus are also called the Altaic peoples) in northern Mongolia and on the steppes of Central Asia during the early centuries of the Christian era. Their language (edit: fatih this is your language) is a branch of the Ural-Altaic family. Physically, most of the Turkic peoples resemble the Mongols, although those of the West have been so mixed with native peoples that they cannot be distinguished from other Mediterranean ethnic groups.

at this point the article is referring to modern Turkey... and says that most of the Turks resemble to Mongols but the ones living in the Minor Asia region are looking like their Balkan neighbors ( imagine why ).
You are lucky to live in Constantinople.

Originally Posted by fatih

They resemble the Mongols. Not they are Mongols.

perhaps you also missed this quote:

The original Central Asian Turkic nomads established their first great empire in the 6CAD, a nomadic confederation that they called Gokturk meaning "Sky Turk".Shamanistic in religion and tribal in organization, Gokturks broke up in the 7C. The Eastern part of the confederation became assimilated with the Chinese civilization and gave rise to the Mongols. The Western part contracted and was ultimately influenced by the Islamic civilization of the Middle East.

So maybe you are right... perhaps the Mongols are Turks, after-all...

Originally Posted by fatih

My regards to good old Hellas
Fatih

Same to the almighty Turkey.
I hope that democracy will prevail and that in some years you are going to be a modern country like the rest of the Europe

cheers mate,
Achilles

[joea]

Well much as I despise Milosovic, I am sorry other criminals (sorry I consider Tudjman a nationalist warmonger as well as Milosovic) were never punished and some remain at large. Hopefully they will soon be caught.

Achilles and Fatih, no use sniping here... I am sorry that we will never have a civilised discussion on these events in the Ottoman Empire in WWI. I will state, a) there were atrocities commited in this period by the Ottomans (and by others too)... a lot of work needs to be done still...I think most scholars agree there was an Armenian massacre.

b) Mongols are NOT Turks, there language is distinct and they were and are Buddhist. They mixed with Turkic peoples of Central Asia AFTER some left to colonise Asia Minor. Those left in Asia minor like Kazaks/Kyrgyz are actually metis of Turk-mongol and adopted Islam.

BTW I am Greek-Canadian, parents born in Egypt. Mom's side came from northern Greece (Ioannina area) father's side traces back through Constantinople to Cappadocia. Been to both countries, love them and the people.

Oh sorry to go off topic.

[Tom Phoenix]

I consider Tudjman a nationalist warmonger as well as Milosovic

He was.

Guys, I hope you won`t turn this into a religious debate cause those can only cause anger and resentment.

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Tom Phoenix

Guys, I hope you won`t turn this into a religious debate cause those can only cause anger and resentment.

Roger, and roger on Tudjman. I guess he and Slobo can talk it over for the rest of eternity -- along with Idi Amin, Uncle Joe Stalin, Adolf Hitler, and many others....they need to leave a seat at the table for Saddam Hussein, too -- I doubt it will be long before he joins them

[Doctor Sinister]

Originally Posted by Tom Phoenix

Guys, I hope you won`t turn this into a religious debate cause those can only cause anger and resentment.

Well said.

Dr. S.

[Cheetah772]

Originally Posted by The Doctor

Let's hope he died unrepentent...I'd hate to think a death bed conversion could buy that SOB a ticket to heaven.

Could you please say that to one of the thiefs who were condemned to die with Jesus Christ on the Cross? One of them choose to believe on Jesus Christ as his personal Savior, and Christ promised him that he will come into Paradise with Christ. It was a sort of deathbed conversion, now, would you go against the Bible on this one?

Granted, in all probabilities, the thief wasn't brutal or evil as Milosevic, but in the end, no one is righteous in the eyes of God, no one!

I can't say for sure if Milosevic accepted Christ as his personal Savior, but if he did not, then he will suffer horribly in the Lake of Fire forever.

Remember what Paul did before his conversion? He was the worst of persecutors presecuting Christians. I am willing to bet that he was equally brutal and evil as Milosevic was toward his fellow countrymen, yet, somehow Paul found it in his heart to be converted to be a born-again Christian! It's always possible for the worst kind of a sinner to repent and accept Christ as his or her personal Savior. Always!

Just remember that the ticket to Heaven is open to all people, either good or bad, for all are sinners and come short of glory of God. Think long and hard on this one!

Dan

[General Disaster]

Originally Posted by Achilles

Anyway, since you are Muslim, I have to explain you what is the difference between the Christian religion and other religions.
Our god, Jesus Christ, forgave the people who crucified him, and our religion teaches us to forgive our enemies...

cheers mate,
Achilles

The Croats that are catholics thus Christians are going to have a hard time forgiving their ex foes the serbs and even a more hard time to forgive Serbian war criminals.
After WWII Tito swepped under the carpet all the atrocities that occured between the different communities of Yougoslavia , they reappearred because of nationalist politicians .
Forgiveness in former Yougoslavia is is an uncommon occurence.

[General Disaster]

Originally Posted by Tom Phoenix

He was.

Guys, I hope you won`t turn this into a religious debate cause those can only cause anger and resentment.

Tudjmann and Milosevic were products of atheistic communist Yougoslavia .Tudjmann was a former Yugoslav army Colonel and Milosevic was a Serbian politician , these guys used religion for political reasons but i doudt they where ever very religious.