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Orders of Battle Orders-of-battle, TO&E's, and related information on who fought where and what they brought to the battle.

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  #1  
Old 03 Feb 06, 08:42
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Taktische Zeichen, Gliederungen, Meldungen and K.St.N.


Since the mid 1990s it has become more and more frequent for military historians (at least in France, I don't know if it's the same in other countries) to study in detail the organization of the german armed forces during WW2 using, among other sources, german documents freely accessible at the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg (http://www.bundesarchiv.de/aufgaben_...orte/freiburg/). I've always found it to be a very fascinating subject even if a bit daunting at first, especially for people not familiar with the german language (which was my case, I studied it very superficially in High School but never could grasp all the grammar ). In this thread I'm gonna try to introduce as simply as possible the way the germans presented the order of battle and TOEs of their military units during the War for those unfamiliar with them, hoping it will interest some of you .

Last edited by Boonierat; 05 Feb 06 at 13:33..
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  #2  
Old 03 Feb 06, 10:28
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Taktische Zeichen

The first thing to learn in order to read WW2 german military documents and orders of battle are their very specific Taktsiche Zeichen (tactical signs or symbols), which are roughly equivalent to the NATO symbols most wargamers are familiar with albeit much more complex. They are used to indicate the size, type and armament of a given military unit and there are literally hundreds of them. They differed throughout the war and the last set was released on 23 May 1943. You can find them in table of organizations, as vehicle markings, on road signs, on maps etc...

Here's an example on how they look like:


Dr. Leo Niehorster has a very comprehensive list of the german tactical symbols for each period of the War on his World War II Armed Forces site hosted at Orbat.com (http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/index.htm):
-German 1939-1940 Organizational Symbols
-German 1941-1942 Organizational Symbols
-German 1943-1945 Organizational Symbols
-Luftwaffen Symbols 1941-1942
-Individual Figure Symbols 1939-1945

Another great source for german military symbols is at WWII Day by Day:
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/kstn...cticalmain.htm

Also, a very good book exists by an australian historian called Handbook of WWII German Military Symbols & Abbreviations published a few years ago by Helion & Co.




Last edited by Boonierat; 03 Feb 06 at 14:35..
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Old 04 Feb 06, 03:17
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Gliederungen

The Gliederung (plural: Gliederungen) is a table that gives both the order of battle and the TOE of a formation (Division or lower). They come in two types, the Sollgliederung which is the planned table of organization and the Kriegsgliederung (or sometimes knows as Istgliederung) which is the most common type and that gives the actual table of organization. They were filled at least once a month by the Ia (1. Generalstabsoffizier, the 1st General Staff Officer in the tactical detachment of a Division HQ, otherwise known as the Chief of Operations) and they relied heavily on the use of tactical symbols explained above. Here are two example of gliederungen:

1. This one shows the planned organization (Sollgliederung) of a Panzer-Division type 1944


2. this one is the Kriegsgliederung of the Sturm-Bataillon AOK 7 as of 9 February 1944


For some reason I ignore the gliederungen are read from right to left, and they are divided into "blocks" for each component of the Division, for instance, the first block of the Pz.Div.44 table is the Panzer-Regiment:


At the top is the Regiment's HQ, then from right to left are the composition of the 1st battalion then the 2nd one.

Last edited by Boonierat; 04 Feb 06 at 09:52..
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Old 04 Feb 06, 05:30
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Meldungen

Often found with the Gliederung is another type of document called the Meldung (plural: Meldungen). The Meldung complements the infos found on the table of organization but this time using charts and is generally divided in 5 parts:
-1. Personelle Lage (personnel situation reporting those present and missing)
-2. Materielle Lage (materiel situation reporting all the weapons and vehicles available)
-3. Pferdefehlstellen (horses reported as missing in case of a horse-drawn unit)
-4. Kurzes Werturteil des kommandeurs (short evaluation of the unit by its commanding officer)
-5. Kurze Stellungnahme der vorgestezen Dienstelle (short comment of the superior echelon)

Here's an example of a blank Meldung:


Last edited by Boonierat; 04 Feb 06 at 05:34..
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Old 04 Feb 06, 06:48
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Thanks for yor work Boonierat.
Please inform us more.

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Old 04 Feb 06, 09:48
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K.St.N.

Finally, the last useful document to study the organization of the german forces during the War is the Kriegstärkenachweisung (K.St.N. for short but I'm not sure how to literally translate it in english, maybe "Deposited War Strength Orders"? if that means anything to english-speaking members , in other words they are the theoretical dotation tables).

From WWII Day by Day:
Quote:
A KStN. is a chart which shows the theoretical organization and composition of a certain unit. KStN.'s were often changed during the war due to reorganization of higher level units like regiments or Abteilungen. The KStN. gives the exact number of men, their Stellengruppe (rank groups), their position, task in the unit and the armament. The type of vehicles, trailers etc.. is set in the KStN. Normally KStN are numbered but there are also several unnumbered KStN in special folders. KStN include units of the Feldheer and the Ersatzheer. Some KStN went through several changes and updates during the war which makes it difficult to determine which correction or update was valid at a certain time. Normally a KStN has a date when it was issued but some have handwritten corrections which are confusing sometimes but I guess future research will solve some unclear matters.
As an example, here's a K.St.N. for a Feldgendarmerie (Military Police) Platoon:


The best internet site to find them I know of is WWII Day by Day which has loads, each presented with a luxury of details using soldier, vehicle and weapon profiles: http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/kstn/kstnmain.htm



This concludes my short presentation of the german OOB and TOE system, is you have any corrections/additions you wish to make or any questions you wish to ask please use this thread .

Boonie

Last edited by Boonierat; 04 Feb 06 at 09:54..
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Old 04 Feb 06, 14:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boonierat

Since the mid 1990s it has become more and more frequent for military historians (at least in France, I don't know if it's the same in other countries) to study in detail the organization of the german armed forces during WW2 using, among other sources, german documents freely accessible at the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg (http://www.bundesarchiv.de/aufgaben_...orte/freiburg/. I've always found it to be a very fascinating subject even if a bit daunting at first, especially for people not familiar with the german language (which was my case, I studied it very superficially in High School but never could grasp all the grammar ). In this thread I'm gonna try to introduce as simply as possible the way the germans presented the order of battle and TOEs of their military units during the War for those unfamiliar with them, hoping it will interest some of you .
Great idea!!! I have not used the bundesarchiv for German unit records--just what is in our National Archives. Once one is to the Freiburg site, how do you get to specific unit records, for example, XXIV Panzer Korps war journals in Ia files for a certain date?
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Old 05 Feb 06, 13:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong
Great idea!!! I have not used the bundesarchiv for German unit records--just what is in our National Archives. Once one is to the Freiburg site, how do you get to specific unit records, for example, XXIV Panzer Korps war journals in Ia files for a certain date?
Can't help you much there R.N., I haven't researched the Bundesarchiv site much as I am limited by my knowledge of the german language
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Old 05 Feb 06, 15:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boonierat
Can't help you much there R.N., I haven't researched the Bundesarchiv site much as I am limited by my knowledge of the german language
There may be hope for us in the future. I went back to the site and found that they are working on an English version for search and navigation. Hope we can access such reports; it will save me periodic trips to the National Archives in Wash DC.
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Hi Stephane,

I see you found a Kriegsgliederung for the Sturm-Bataillon AOK 7 as of 9 February 1944! As part of my weight of fire study for units in Normandy I was wondering whether you would share such information as you've found for Sturm-Bataillon AOK 7 with me or whether you could point me to particular documents that have similar data for German units that fought in Normandy that I could order from the US Archives?

Regards,

Neil
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bundesarchive

Hello,
I have used some KStN in print form, but not have accessed the online resource in Freiburg.....I'd like to get to the company level of detail for strengths and armaments and other equipment for SS Germania Motorized Infantry Regiment in Sep 1939 in the Polish Campaign to upgraded my research on its disasterous encounter with Army Malopolska, specifically the 11th Carpathian Infantry Division, commanded by Col. Prugar Ketling.
It would be nice also to get any relevant after action reports for the period 13-17 Sep and later by the Standardtenfuehrer Demelhuber and/or his staff. Some of the studies in English, based on German sources, are rather cherry picked and sort of biased in my judgement. Polish sources from the Polish Military History Institute, and several Polish language publications provide a more balanced perspective in my view, which contradicts the conventional wisdom that the "victors write the history".
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Old 08 Feb 10, 22:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WAKEN View Post
Hi Stephane,

I see you found a Kriegsgliederung for the Sturm-Bataillon AOK 7 as of 9 February 1944! As part of my weight of fire study for units in Normandy I was wondering whether you would share such information as you've found for Sturm-Bataillon AOK 7 with me or whether you could point me to particular documents that have similar data for German units that fought in Normandy that I could order from the US Archives?

Regards,

Neil
Neil -

This is all you need:
http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/n...rob/gerob.html

This is the sister website to the book "Normandy 1944" by Niklas Zetterling.
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Old 09 Feb 10, 15:16
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Thanks, I already have Zetterling's book
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Old 09 Feb 10, 15:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WAKEN View Post
Thanks, I already have Zetterling's book
Sorry Neil, can't recall where I found that gliederung really, I guess you know this site already? :

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/
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Originally Posted by Boonierat View Post
Sorry Neil, can't recall where I found that gliederung really, I guess you know this site already? :

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/
Also check out www.sturmpanzer.com. It last a lot of KSTN's and scanned German archived documents from NARA.
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