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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Warfare Through the Ages > The Medieval Era

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The Medieval Era Discussions on Knights and Crusaders, and all things medieval!

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  #61  
Old 07 Jan 09, 13:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
So many people see them as an offensive against the Muslims, but they were in fact a counter-offensive following the fall of Spain and decades (centuries) of attacks on Christian sites in the middle east.
The first crusade was preached just because the very "tolerant" muslim
sultan of jerusalem had forbiden the access to the Holyland to Christians
pilgrims.
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  #62  
Old 07 Jan 09, 13:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theray View Post
2. The Battle of Talas in 751 CE was a conflict between the muslim arabs and the chinese over central asia.
"The eminent Sinologist L. Carrington Goodrich called it" one of the decisive battles of history," and the great Russian Orientalist and historian extraordinaire of Muslim Central Asia, Barthold, "declared that "this battle. . .determined the question which of the two civilizations, the Chinese or the Muslim, should predominate in the land (of Turkestan)." Yet few people have heard of the Battle of Talas"
Excellent choice it's with this victory that islam had spread to central Asia like the black Plague in europe
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  #63  
Old 07 Jan 09, 13:49
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Originally Posted by Gui_le_noir View Post
The battle of Castillon and John Talbot's death has always been a favorite.
There were no Shakespeare to talk about the last battle of the hundred
years wars good choice
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  #64  
Old 09 Jan 09, 12:56
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Though the name of the battle was not mentioned, Talbot's death was mentioned in the begining of one of Shakespeare's other plays. (Henry VI part one maybe? It's been a long time since I read it.) The tiny bit mourning his passing was hardly "once more into the breach" or a St. Crispin's day speech though. That was what inspired me to find out about Castillon.

Last edited by Gui_le_noir; 09 Jan 09 at 13:00..
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  #65  
Old 09 Jan 09, 13:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGT Beauregard View Post
The first crusade was preached just because the very "tolerant" muslim
sultan of jerusalem had forbiden the access to the Holyland to Christians
pilgrims.
It is a bad idea to compare Muslim tolerance to Christian tolerance my friend. I can assure you that the historical record bear that out.
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  #66  
Old 09 Jan 09, 13:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass_man86 View Post
It is a bad idea to compare Muslim tolerance to Christian tolerance my friend. I can assure you that the historical record bear that out.
Do you mean That Islam is a Tolerant Religion, when they preach the Jihad ? because I don't, I was just very Sarcastic
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Last edited by PGT Beauregard; 09 Jan 09 at 14:16..
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  #67  
Old 09 Jan 09, 19:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGT Beauregard View Post
Do you mean That Islam is a Tolerant Religion, when they preach the Jihad ? because I don't, I was just very Sarcastic
Islam was at times and places a very tolerant religion in the middle ages. In different times, in different places (and sometimes the same places) it was fairly intolerant. However, you can't paint the entire religion with a broad brush across all time periods, the variation is too wide and the subject matter is far too nuanced for that.

Studying just Medieval Iberia, one can see examples of both tolerance and intolerance. The Taifa kingdoms, operating in the 11th century, were extremely tolerant. They allowed Christians and Jews to attain high levels of power and the average Christian or Jewish citizen enjoyed a fair amount of safety and security. By contrast, at the end of the 11th century, the Almoravids took power over southern Iberia, and they were extremely fanatical Muslims. Many of the rights and privileges enjoyed by the Christians and Jews under the Taifa kingdoms were wiped away.

So, in the same location, in the course of only a couple of decades, the level of tolerance of "dhimmi" peoples changed drastically. And this is just a period of about 70 years in Medieval Iberia. Imagine how wildly different the status of Christians and Jews could have been thousands of miles away hundreds of years earlier or later. There's simply no way to say that Islam was tolerant or intolerant during the middle ages. Islam was not then, and is not now, a monolithic entity.
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  #68  
Old 10 Jan 09, 02:54
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Unfortunately, we have 3 religeons all worshipping the same God of Love, Peace and Tranquility, whose followers prove their worth by killing other worshippers of the same God. Go figure ?
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  #69  
Old 10 Jan 09, 03:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alina View Post
I

So, in the same location, in the course of only a couple of decades, the level of tolerance of "dhimmi" peoples changed drastically. And this is just a period of about 70 years in Medieval Iberia. Imagine how wildly different the status of Christians and Jews could have been thousands of miles away hundreds of years earlier or later. There's simply no way to say that Islam was tolerant or intolerant during the middle ages. Islam was not then, and is not now, a monolithic entity.
Don't we say that Islam started his Rennaissance before his Dark Ages. To come back on my original post (concerning the reason of first crusade), you can't say that the sultan of Jerusalem was tolerant, stopping
access to Holyland to Christians
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  #70  
Old 10 Jan 09, 12:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGT Beauregard View Post
Don't we say that Islam started his Rennaissance before his Dark Ages. To come back on my original post (concerning the reason of first crusade), you can't say that the sultan of Jerusalem was tolerant, stopping
access to Holyland to Christians
No, I don't think Renaissance and Dark Ages are really applicable terms. They're loaded terms made up by Italians in the 14th and 15th centuries. People like them because they're simple and clear cut, but real history is rarely simple or clear cut.

As to your original post, it lacks an understanding of what really went on in the late 11th century in the Islamic world, leading to the first crusade. First of all, there was no "sultan of Jerusalem." That title didn't exist, and I've certainly never heard it used. Secondly, Jerusalem changed hands four or five times leading up to the Crusades themselves in a period of about twenty years.

The Fatimid Caliphate was a Shi'a empire ruling from Egypt at the time of the First Crusade. It had once controlled much of the middle east, but had slowly been beaten back over a couple of centuries, and was kind of at a low ebb in its power in the late 11th century. Up until 1076, the Fatimids controlled Jerusalem, and they were tolerant towards Christian pilgrims, allowing them access to Jerusalem, and making sure they were protected from bandits and all of that. The Fatimids were a pretty well-organized government and they had a decent infrastructure in place, and were thus able to manage that. Also, the rulers were highly educated, had lived in the region for a long time, and were familiar with their chief enemy - the Byzantines. That gave them some measure of respect and understanding towards a major Christian power, which probably contributed to the tolerance they tended to show.

Well, in the 11th century, the Seljukids (Seljuk Turks) showed up on the scene. They took Baghdad from the Fatimids and then moved in on Syria as well. They captured Jerusalem from the Fatimids in 1076 under Sultan Malik Shah. However, the Seljukids were not a single, organized, state like the Fatimids. As a result there was a lot of raiding and in-fighting that went on amongst the different Seljukid sultans.

While Malik Shah was technically the Sultan of the Seljukids, Tutush I, an important Seljukid emir who ruled Damascus, made war against him. He conquered most of Syria in 1085, lost it in 1086, and then regained it again. So, during this time, Jerusalem was changing hands between the Seljukids under Malik Shah and the Seljukids under Tutush I. This is the period when the Christian pilgrims are not just being denied access to the Holy Land, they're being actively raided and killed by the Seljukids. However, this isn't directly attributable to a policy set by either Malik Shah or Tutush. It's just a by-product of the turbulent times and the fact that small bands of roving Turks in the 11th century tended to pillage and plunder things when they got the chance.

Tutush made Artuq, another Seljukid, the governor of Jerusalem in 1086. This launched what is known as the Artuqid dynasty, which is one of the many minor sultanates or emirates to come out of the dissolution of the Seljukid empire in the late 11th century. Artuq ruled Jerusalem as governor for only five years, until his death in 1091. At that point, his sons took his place, but they only lasted another seven years until 1098.

In 1098, the Fatimids retook Jerusalem from the Artuqids. This means that the tolerant Muslims, the ones who had made sure Christians could visit the Holy Land and who had a good infrastructure to protect pilgrims, were the ones ruling the city in 1099, when the Crusaders destroyed the city, killing nearly everyone in it.

The trouble was, Pope Urban II had already preached his Crusade in 1095 at Clermont, 3 years before the Fatimids retook Jerusalem and 4 years before the conquest of Jerusalem by the crusaders. At this time, his list of grievances actually applied. The Seljukid rulers really had made life hell for the Christians, the Christians really had been raided and pillaged and murdered. However, because things were so fractured and complicated in the middle east, when the Crusaders finally did arrive, they ended up killing a bunch of people who weren't responsible for any of those grievances.

One of the other great ironies of the whole situation is that the Fatimids tried to negotiate with the Crusaders to be their allies. They thought that the Crusaders were Byzantine mercenaries sent to fight the Seljukids. Since the Fatimids were enemies of the Seljukids as well, they thought they could make a deal and fight the Seljukids together. Instead, the Crusaders rebuffed any attempts at making peace and continued on with their "holy mission" to capture the cities of Syria, especially Jerusalem, which they accomplished in 1099.

So, in response to what you said, no I can't say the "sultan of Jerusalem" was tolerant when he persecuted Christians. I can't say that because the sultan of Jerusalem never existed. I also don't think there was any top-down policy to persecute Christians from the Seljukids, I think it was a by-product of the strife, the fact that they were loosely-associated tribal warbands, and that they were a very aggressive war-like people fresh off the steppes. However, I do find it deliciously ironic that the tolerant Muslims were the ones the crusaders ended up killing in the end.

Last edited by Alina; 10 Jan 09 at 12:27..
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Old 10 Jan 09, 14:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGT Beauregard View Post
Thank you to tell me that renaissance come from Italy, (but as you don't know it's a french word which is the translation of the italian wordRinascimento ) in the middle of 15th century.
You're missing my point. I'm not talking about the Renaissance as a period, I'm talking about the terms Dark Ages and Renaissance. Petrarch, in the 14th century, one of the most famous "renaissance" writers in Italy, invented the term Dark Ages. He thought he was participating in a great rebirth of classical culture, but for it to be a rebirth, he needed something to compare it against. So, he labeled the period from the fall of Rome until the 14th century to be the "Dark Ages" and the label became very popular. The fact is though, the term Dark Ages is useless historically but it has become very persistent because it is simple and evocative.

So, my issue was that you were applying two terms invented by medieval Italians to describe their flawed view of their own world to the Islamic world. Not only can you not really apply these terms to the Islamic world because of the great historical and cultural difference between the history of Islam and the history of Europe, but these terms themselves have no real historical basis even for Europe itself. So, the terms have absolutely no relevance in the context they were offered. That was my objection.
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Old 10 Jan 09, 14:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alina View Post
No, I don't think Renaissance and Dark Ages are really applicable terms. They're loaded terms made up by Italians in the 14th and 15th centuries. People like them because they're simple and clear cut, but real history is rarely simple or clear cut.
Thank you to tell me that renaissance came from Italy , (but as you know it's a french word which is the translation of the italian wordRinascimento ) in the middle of 15th century.
I just wanted to point that in the of time the Caliphate of Córdoba and Baghdad, science was very developped espacially Astronomy,Medecine,mathematics and Jews and Christians were well treated by Muslims. It's why we can compare this period to the Renaissance. But after this golden ages came what I call the dark ages. Look what are all the Islamic countries ruled by theSharia like Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Lybia, Iran ect...Don't you think they went from the good to the bad.
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Old 10 Jan 09, 14:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGT Beauregard View Post
Thank you to tell me that renaissance came from Italy , (but as you know it's a french word which is the translation of the italian wordRinascimento ) in the middle of 15th century.
I just wanted to point that in the of time the Caliphate of Córdoba and Baghdad, science was very developped espacially Astronomy,Medecine,mathematics and Jews and Christians were well treated by Muslims. It's why we can compare this period to the Renaissance. But after this golden ages came what I call the dark ages. Look what are all the Islamic countries ruled by theSharia like Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Lybia, Iran ect...Don't you think they went from the good to the bad.
Why did you delete your old post and repost it?

Anyway, no Islam hasn't gone from "good" to "bad." History isn't simple. You can't make broad sweeping generalizations like that. Why do you assume that the Abbasid caliphate was the pinnacle of Islamic civilization? What about the Umayyads or the Fatimids? What about the Ottomans? It's ridiculous to claim that the Abbasids in Baghdad were some kind of pinnacle and that after that Islam declined until the modern day when it exists in a "dark age."
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Old 10 Jan 09, 14:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alina View Post
First of all, there was no "sultan of Jerusalem."
Ok I should have said the sultan who ruled the Caliphate which included
Jerusalem.
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Old 10 Jan 09, 14:22
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Why did you delete your old post and repost it?
I wanted to correct typing errors and add comments.
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Le probleme avec les cons, c'est qu'il ne se fatiguent jamais
(The problem with Pr.cks, is that they never get tired ) Michel Audiard
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