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| Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. . |
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21 Jul 09, 11:39
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Real Name: Anders
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: London
Posts: 880
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Ok, here's a challenge.
The picture below does of course illustrate the Rheinmetall 120mm L/44 and L/55 tank guns. For Rheinmetall this gun has been extremely successful and exported far and wide. Some nations have simply taken the gun as it is and used it for their MBTs. Others have used this gun as a template from which to develop their own tank gun. The question now is how many tanks, both production and prototype tanks, can we name that use either Rheinmetall gun or a derivative thereof. So far I have found 14 tanks (though I'm not 100% on all of them) for the L/44 and 3 for the L/55.
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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
T. S. Elliot
Last edited by AEP; 21 Jul 09 at 11:41..
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21 Jul 09, 17:32
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Real Name: Dante
Join Date: May 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,298
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Definately Leopard 2 to Leopard 2 A5 top; Leopard 2 A6 bottom.
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"Is it true that there is a point on a man's head that if you shoot it, it will blow up?"
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21 Jul 09, 18:07
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Real Name: Anders
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: London
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar1
Definately Leopard 2 to Leopard 2 A5 top; Leopard 2 A6 bottom.
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That's the easiest ones out of the way.
For the Leo 2 with L/44 I would count all variants up to and including Leo 2A5 the Strv 122, Leo 2 PSO, and Leo 2A5 DK.
Under the Leo 2A6 I would include the 2A6M, Leo 2 HEL, Leo 2E, Leo 2A6EX.
So far, the score simply looks like this:
L/44: Leo 2A5
L/55: Leo 2A6
But of course there's many more to go 
__________________
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
T. S. Elliot
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21 Jul 09, 18:17
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ACG Forums - General Staff
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Real Name: Garry
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Victoria
Posts: 13,336
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Rheinmetall's L/44
Austria, Canada, Chile, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey.
M256
Australia, Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia.
KM256
Sth Korea.
Type 90
Japan.
Rheinmetall's L/55
Canada, Greece, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain.
World Industries Ace L/55
Sth Korea.
The Challenger II may also get the L/55 version one day, two have trialed it.....
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“The ordinary acts we practice every day at home are of more importance to the soul than their simplicity might suggest.”
Thomas More.
"... but all war is a mistake, all war."
General Peter Cosgrove
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21 Jul 09, 18:39
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Real Name: Anders
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: London
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achtung Baby
Rheinmetall's L/44
Austria, Canada, Chile, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey.
M256
Australia, Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia.
KM256
Sth Korea.
Type 90
Japan.
Rheinmetall's L/55
Canada, Greece, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain.
World Industries Ace L/55
Sth Korea.
The Challenger II may also get the L/55 version one day, two have trialed it.....
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Nice list
So in addition to the 2A5 and 2A6 I presume you are referring to the M1, K1A1, Type 90, K2 and Challenger 2. Any others you'd like to add that list 
Don't forget that there are tanks that use Rheinmetall derived guns as well (incl. prototypes).
Updating the tally so far:
L/44: Leo 2A5, M1, K1A1, Type 90
L/55: Leo 2A6, K2, Challenger 2
__________________
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
T. S. Elliot
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21 Jul 09, 20:52
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ACG Forums - General Staff
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wibble
Posts: 7,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEP
Challenger 2
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Not so sure that should count. The Chally2's weapon is basically L30 with a smooth bore barrel taken from the L/55. The trouble is the L30 has a very compact breach compared to the German gun. So there's insufficient space for the Rheinmetall 120mm. Add in the two piece ammo storage currently installed and you'd need an entirely new turret.
The initial problems was that when it fired the signature was too intense. By all accounts they've now fixed that issue.
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Winnie says
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"He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.
It was an Accident."
Herr Flick.
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22 Jul 09, 03:47
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Real Name: Miloš
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Belgrade
Posts: 693
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- Do we count IMI 120mm gun, found on israeli Merkava tank, and M60T Sabra upgrade?
- Italian Ariete tank (L44)
- prototype of turkish Altay
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22 Jul 09, 07:24
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Real Name: Anders
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: London
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Listy
Not so sure that should count. The Chally2's weapon is basically L30 with a smooth bore barrel taken from the L/55. The trouble is the L30 has a very compact breach compared to the German gun. So there's insufficient space for the Rheinmetall 120mm. Add in the two piece ammo storage currently installed and you'd need an entirely new turret.
The initial problems was that when it fired the signature was too intense. By all accounts they've now fixed that issue.
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You are right, the 120mm L/55 has not of course been adopted across the Challenger 2 range. IIRC firing trails with two vehicle using the German gun began in Jan '06. Though I do not know what the final verdict of these tests is...
However, my intention here is to try and illustrate how ubiquitous the Rheinmetall guns have become. Even if they are not adopted on a particular tank, they represent a benchmark that is difficult to ignore. So for the purposes of this exercise I want to not only mention the production versions, but also include trial applications of the Rheinmetall guns.
__________________
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
T. S. Elliot
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22 Jul 09, 07:40
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Real Name: Anders
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: London
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vathra
- Do we count IMI 120mm gun, found on israeli Merkava tank, and M60T Sabra upgrade?
- Italian Ariete tank (L44)
- prototype of turkish Altay
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Yes, I would count these as well since they all have their roots in the Rheinmetalls. Each does nonetheless have notable differences. The IMI 120mm gun is for example more compact and uses a different recoil system. The Oto Melara 120mm L/44 on the C1 Ariete for example has an identical gun chamber but slightly different barrel layout.
The tally so far:
L/44: Leo 2A5, M1, K1A1, Type 90, Merkava III/IV, C1 Ariete, M60T Sabra
L/55: Leo 2A6, K2, Challenger 2, presumably Altay
I know of at least of 4 more tanks that have dressed up in a Rheinmetall 120mm L/44 and 2 more of which I'm not entirely certain of the heritage but suspect Rheinmetall involvement.
__________________
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
T. S. Elliot
Last edited by AEP; 22 Jul 09 at 07:47..
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22 Jul 09, 08:40
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Real Name: Miloš
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Belgrade
Posts: 693
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Indian Arjun tank had tests with Rheinmetal gun.
Ukraine T84 Yatagan has some 120mm smoothbore gun, capable of firing NATO standard rounds.
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22 Jul 09, 12:29
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ACG Forums - General Staff
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wibble
Posts: 7,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEP
You are right, the 120mm L/55 has not of course been adopted across the Challenger 2 range. IIRC firing trails with two vehicle using the German gun began in Jan '06. Though I do not know what the final verdict of these tests is...
However, my intention here is to try and illustrate how ubiquitous the Rheinmetall guns have become. Even if they are not adopted on a particular tank, they represent a benchmark that is difficult to ignore. So for the purposes of this exercise I want to not only mention the production versions, but also include trial applications of the Rheinmetall guns.
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I can tell you how the program went. CLIP (Challenger lethality improvement Program) is dead. It costs money which the armed forces just don't have. As I said its just the barrel off the L/55, not the gun its self, those come off the L30.
__________________
Winnie says
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"He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.
It was an Accident."
Herr Flick.
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22 Jul 09, 12:43
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Real Name: Amyntas
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 40 45'15.39"N 22 31'07.64"E
Posts: 3,552
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I haven't seen it listed yet but the M1 Abrams has it as well.
Oh my bad i see it now. 
__________________
BoRG
Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4
You do realize that the rest of us get these pointy things called 'spears', right? And that cavalry doesn't like 'spears', especially when they're all in this hedge-like thing called a 'phalanx'.....
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Last edited by Arthwys; 22 Jul 09 at 13:41..
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22 Jul 09, 16:29
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Real Name: Miloš
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Belgrade
Posts: 693
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Lets add prototypes of:
- Leopard 1A6 prototype
- South African Olifant (Centurion)
- Jordanian M48 upgrade AB9B1
- Italian Centauro (wheeled vehicle)
And of course german version of MBT-70
Last edited by vathra; 22 Jul 09 at 16:35..
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22 Jul 09, 18:26
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Real Name: Nikola Sandic
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Trieste
Posts: 1,895
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Quote:
Lets add prototypes of:
- Italian Centauro (wheeled vehicle)
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Actually wheeled AT destroyer for light to medium resistance.
And introduced to Italian army,so it not any more a prototype.
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Косово је Србија!
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Armored Brigade
Armored Brigade Facebook page
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22 Jul 09, 18:47
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Real Name: Miloš
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Belgrade
Posts: 693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikolas93TS
Actually wheeled AT destroyer for light to medium resistance.
And introduced to Italian army,so it not any more a prototype.
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It is in italian army with standard 105mm gun.
Version with 120mm gun is probably ordered by Oman, 6 vehicles. (haven't seen one) |
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