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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Colonial Era

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American Colonial Era 1660-1763 The growth of North American colonies, often with a change in native & national control.

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  #16  
Old 06 Feb 11, 16:53
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https://www.benning.army.mil/tenant/...nt/history.htm

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  #17  
Old 07 Feb 11, 07:10
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  #18  
Old 07 Nov 11, 02:14
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For those who have not read it, poster Lirelou's book "The Dega" (a novel based on his experiences in Vietnam, and reviewed and discussed on the Vietnam thread) demonstrates that the skills required of the Rangers of yore, and the problems they faced when operating alongside irregular native units - lived on in the 1960s among USSF in SEAsia.
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  #19  
Old 16 Dec 11, 13:34
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Gentle beings,
If memory serves, Roberts served the 'winning' side in the F&I dust up.
Let us not forget that our own G.W. started the whole thing and we honor him as the father of everything.
I am a member of a ceremonial militia unit and have proudly fired volley salutes for veterans from King George's War to the present.
We salute the man and his service, not his politiks or religion.

My farthing

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  #20  
Old 16 Dec 11, 13:45
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Well then, as stated if we have one for Rogers then Arnold surly deserves one as well. Then again, Rogers was always true to the Crown, damn fool, while Arnold changed sides in the middle of the ARW.
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  #21  
Old 16 Dec 11, 13:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
Lierlou : Thats not how I was taught that US Army Rangers came into being. During WW2 a unit similar to the USMC was needed in Europe but they were too busy in the pacfic theater . So the job was given to William O. Darby to start one he was reading history ( Not watching movies ) and he gave them the name of the Colonial Rangers. After they were organised they were sent to Britian to be trained by the British Commandos .Thank You
The Ranges have next to no connects to the USMC. Not in mission, not in make up, and not in heritage. The USMC are like all the Marine the world over, sea borne inf shock troops.
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  #22  
Old 19 Dec 11, 06:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimble View Post
Are those that fought on the loyalist side no less american tho?they simply had a different idea of who they were? After all arnt both sides honoured re the civil war?

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Originally Posted by Lance Williams View Post
Bimble, I think that's a very good analogy...........
Actually Memorial Day does not honor Confederate soldiers. CSA soldiers who fell fighting for the Confederacy are recognized in various Confederate Memorial Days in many southern states. The earliest of these are older than Decoration/Memorial Day and motivated General Logan to push for a similar day of rememberance for Union veterans. Memorial day grew to included all those who gave their lives in service of the United States. That pretty definitely excludes CSA soldiers who fought against the United States.
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  #23  
Old 19 Dec 11, 08:35
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No he absolutely should not be! Rogers never fought for America and he or any other Loyalists should no more be honored on Memorial Day than a Nazi or Viet Cong and especially a slaveocrat should be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
As for not having Special Forces, Rangers, etc., Half pint John is right. The WWII Rangers were a carbon copy of the British commandos, and only got tagged with the "Ranger" label because of the popularity of the novel "Northwest Passage", and the movie of the same title with Spencer Tracy playing Robert Rogers.
When General Lucian K.Truscott put out the orders to form a special unit to be modeled after and perform simliar missons to the Commandos he said that this unit should not be called commandos because he felt that the name belonged to the Brits, so the title Rangers was used.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
Lierlou : Thats not how I was taught that US Army Rangers came into being. During WW2 a unit similar to the USMC was needed in Europe but they were too busy in the pacfic theater . So the job was given to William O. Darby to start one he was reading history ( Not watching movies ) and he gave them the name of the Colonial Rangers. After they were organised they were sent to Britian to be trained by the British Commandos .Thank You
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
The Ranges have next to no connects to the USMC. Not in mission, not in make up, and not in heritage. The USMC are like all the Marine the world over, sea borne inf shock troops.
In truth the USMC was terrified that this is what would happen to them, that they would be turned into a small bunch of commando type units. The USMC Raider battalions were done away with so D.C. would not just make the entire Corp just that.
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  #24  
Old 19 Dec 11, 11:31
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Well, to sum up: The Movie Northwest Passage came out in 1940 and was extremely popular. Truscott was seconded to the Combined Operations Staff in 1942, and became a champion of bringing the British Commando concept into the U.S. Army as "Rangers". Understand that in organization, the WWII Rangers were a carbon copy of the British Commandos. (See: Rangers: The Long Road to Recognition, Special Warfare, Vol. 1, No 1, April 1988, pp. 19-27). The 1st Ranger Battalion was activated in the U.K. on 19 June 1942.

The Marines, like the Army, was interested in the operational and strategic raiding capabilities of British Combined Operations, and designated its first such unit, the 1st Separate Battalion, on 6 January 1942 and assigned it to the Atlantic Fleet. However, with the raising of a 2nd Separate Battalion on 19 Fenruary 1942, both were redesignated Raiders, and sent to the Pacific. Of interest, the USMC did not adopt the light infantry structure of both the Commandos and Rangers, but stuck to a standard USMC battalion model. The Raiders conducted operations at the strategic, operational, and tactical level with mixed results. But as the Corps grew in size, and the balance of Naval power in the Pacific shifted, the USMC needed amphibious infantry more than they needed specialized raiders. The last Raider operation was in November 143, where Co. M of the 3rd Raider Bn was attached to the 1st Marine Para Bn for a raid near Koiari on Bougainville. They had the misfortune of landing in the midst of a very large Japanese force, and were soon fighting desperately to hold the beachhead for evacuation. Fortunately, the Navy arrived in time. Though official records state that the Raiders were 'disbanded', theyw ere in fact grouped together to become a new 4th Marine Regiment. (The Raider Experience, Infantry, March-April 1978, pp. 35-41)

So: The USMC Raiders pre-date the WWII Rangers, and the USMC Raiders look far more like modern Rangers than the WWII Rangers. And both functioned better as infantry forces than raiding forces.

I am the author of both articles, and both contain organizational diagrams for comparison between the differing Ranger units over the years, and the WWII Rangers vis-a-vis the USMC Raiders.
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  #25  
Old 20 Dec 11, 07:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lirelou View Post
Well, to sum up: The Movie Northwest Passage came out in 1940 and was extremely popular. Truscott was seconded to the Combined Operations Staff in 1942, and became a champion of bringing the British Commando concept into the U.S. Army as "Rangers". Understand that in organization, the WWII Rangers were a carbon copy of the British Commandos. (See: Rangers: The Long Road to Recognition, Special Warfare, Vol. 1, No 1, April 1988, pp. 19-27). The 1st Ranger Battalion was activated in the U.K. on 19 June 1942.

The Marines, like the Army, was interested in the operational and strategic raiding capabilities of British Combined Operations, and designated its first such unit, the 1st Separate Battalion, on 6 January 1942 and assigned it to the Atlantic Fleet. However, with the raising of a 2nd Separate Battalion on 19 Fenruary 1942, both were redesignated Raiders, and sent to the Pacific. Of interest, the USMC did not adopt the light infantry structure of both the Commandos and Rangers, but stuck to a standard USMC battalion model. The Raiders conducted operations at the strategic, operational, and tactical level with mixed results. But as the Corps grew in size, and the balance of Naval power in the Pacific shifted, the USMC needed amphibious infantry more than they needed specialized raiders. The last Raider operation was in November 143, where Co. M of the 3rd Raider Bn was attached to the 1st Marine Para Bn for a raid near Koiari on Bougainville. They had the misfortune of landing in the midst of a very large Japanese force, and were soon fighting desperately to hold the beachhead for evacuation. Fortunately, the Navy arrived in time. Though official records state that the Raiders were 'disbanded', theyw ere in fact grouped together to become a new 4th Marine Regiment. (The Raider Experience, Infantry, March-April 1978, pp. 35-41)

So: The USMC Raiders pre-date the WWII Rangers, and the USMC Raiders look far more like modern Rangers than the WWII Rangers. And both functioned better as infantry forces than raiding forces.

I am the author of both articles, and both contain organizational diagrams for comparison between the differing Ranger units over the years, and the WWII Rangers vis-a-vis the USMC Raiders.
Reorganized disbanded...you say toemaytoe I say tahmahtoe. It is telling though that the personnel and officers were retained intact. I'll have to look up the subsequent actions of the 4th Regt.

I remember reading that Chesty Puller thought that the raiders pulled to many quality men from the line units for a group that was under employed and under achieved. I'm not knocking the units after all Chesty was losing men to and sharing resources with the raiders at the time so he may have had an axe to grind.

Kudos on the articles.
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Last edited by Widow Maker; 20 Dec 11 at 08:02..
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  #26  
Old 20 Dec 11, 09:17
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Rogers deserves to be honored. He served the British Crown as did the other American colonists through 1775. And there was a significant American Loyalist contingent who fought for the Crown in 1775-1783. Rogers was a good soldier and accomplished much to win the French and Indian War on the Canadian frontier.

He wasn't the first Ranger commander in North America, the Gorham brothers beat him to it, but that does not diminish what he and his Rangers accomplished.

Sincerely,
M
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Old 20 Dec 11, 15:29
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I would prefer to see someone who had more lasting impact on the U.S. Army being memorialized, like Jacob Brown, Alexander Macomb, or Emory Upton.
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  #28  
Old 21 Dec 11, 15:54
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They can be too and all that you mentioned are deserving of it. Perhaps you could start the idea moving and turn it into reality.

Sincerely,
M
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  #29  
Old 29 Dec 13, 21:34
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I think Rogers was a Great American and he may have been forced to support the Brits as he was treated pretty shabbily by the Americans. He was one of the founders of the Ranger/Special Forces and his rules are still used today. (Benjamin Church I believe preceded him in the use of ranging tactics and employment of Indian Scouts in King Phillip's War.)
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Old 29 Dec 13, 22:26
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I wonder! If you think that you shouldn't honour Rogers, should you honour Orde Wingate or John Dill?

Paul
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