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  #16  
Old 02 Oct 17, 03:18
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I'd want some reputable source, says a peer-reviewed work by an academic historian, to believe this was more than a last dream of Goebbels. Certainly a TV show doesn't cut it.

As to the killing of Oppenhoff, it was tagged as a "Werwolf" operation, yeah, but of course it was not, if by that one assumes that "Werwolf" means postwar and guerrillas, as the misguided and badly informed initial post says. It actually was an operation organized from Nazi Germany while it was still extant, carried out not by spontaneous guerrillas who lived under occupation but by parachuted agents, and the killing took place in March 1945 - i.e., not "postwar". In other words, not one parameter is right.

If anything, the death of Oppenhoff is the best demonstration of all that the Werwolf did not exist. If they had existed, and the Nazi government wanted Oppenhoff dead, they could have passed word to the Werwolf in Aachen to kill Oppenhoff. Instead they had to resort to a complicated operation involving the parachuting of special agents for this one purpose. Ergo, there were no Werwolf to use.
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Old 02 Oct 17, 07:33
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The U Tube piece contains a great deal of detail on how the Werewolves were organised and supposed to operate that looks suspiciously as if it has been lifted lock stock and barrel (right down to details such as the underground hideouts in the woods) from the set up of Britain's Auxillary Units established in 1940 to act as a British Resistance in the event of a German invasion. Details of these were for obvious reasons kept very secret and it is unlikely that the Germans woulds have known about them in 1944 From the end of 1941 the Auxillaries morphed into elements of SOE although some ended up with the SAS. Details of the Auxillary Units can be found in Churchill's Underground Army by John Warwicker published in 2008. However details were emerging as early as 2005 and the BBC had even produced material from which such information could be lifted.
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Old 02 Oct 17, 11:07
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Sensationalist ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Interesting documentary From the History channel on Post-WWII German Guerillas..it reminds me of the ordeal the US military has gone through in the post war Iraq and Afghanistan. Even after the Germans surrendered in April of 1945, 16 months later German supporters of the Reich were launching attacks against Germans sympathetic to the allied cause as well as attacks against US soldiers
... Nazi drivel, of little significance overall.

Quote:
"By the end of March Wahl (NOTE - Karl Wahl, Gauleiter of Swabia) was promoting in his Gau the creation by Goebbels and Labour Front leader Robert Ley of partisan organizations to engage in terroristic guerrilla activity to hinder the enemy advance (and at the same time to combat and deter defeatism), the so-called ‘Werwolf’ and ‘Freikorps “Adolf Hitler” ’. The idea of a partisan-style movement had been first mooted in 1943, and it took preliminary organizational shape under the aegis of the SS in the autumn of the following year, when the name ‘Werwolf’ – resonating in German tradition with connotations of ferocious defiance as well as shadowy lupine terror – was attached to it. Some guerrilla activity was carried out on the eastern front and to a lesser extent in the west in the winter months of 1944–5, though it could inflict no more than pinpricks on the advancing enemy. Its most notable activities were terroristic in nature. A number of American-appointed mayors in the newly occupied parts of western Germany were assassinated, for instance, most notably the Mayor of Aachen, Franz Oppenhoff, in March 1945. Once the western front had crumbled and the Allies were pressing deep into Germany, underground resistance movements began to gain more importance in Nazi thinking, particularly when the Party leadership started to show interest in them. Martin Bormann saw their potential for tackling defeatism and possible insurgency within the Reich. But ‘Werwolf’ took shape, however dimly, in public consciousness only when Goebbels turned it into a propaganda enterprise, muscling in on the territory both of the Party Chancellery and of the SS, though with Hitler’s backing.

On 1 April, Werwolf Radio began broadcasting its tirades against the Allies, exultant news of real or imaginary acts of sabotage, and dark threats against ‘defeatists’ and ‘traitors’ in the homeland. Just before this, Ley, one of the zanier zealots in the last phase, had approached Hitler with the notion of creating an organization similar to that of the Werwolf, aimed at mobilizing young fanatical activists, equipped with little more than bicycles and bazookas, to shoot down approaching enemy tanks. Hitler agreed to the establishment of a Freikorps bearing his own name. Goebbels’ only objection was that it was under the leadership of a man he regarded as little more than a clown. He himself expected much of the partisan activity, chiefly ‘to hunt down every German traitor on the side of the western enemy’, though he prided himself that the Werwolf had caused horror in the enemy camp and aroused fears of a ‘partisan Germany’ that would cause unrest in Europe for years. This was an overestimation of Allied fears – though the Allies certainly took seriously the prospect of having to combat guerrilla warfare as they fought their way through Germany, and of the likelihood of a ‘national redoubt’ in the Alps where the Nazis would continue to hold out. It also grossly overrated the appetite for partisan activity among the exhausted German people.

Overall, the Werwolf and Freikorps ‘Adolf Hitler’ added up to little. Their victims – an estimated 3,000–5,000 killed (including continued post-war activity) were not insignificant in number. But for the Allies, they were – beyond the worries they initially aroused – no more than a minor irritant. And among the German population they had little support – though there was undoubtedly some appeal to fanaticized Hitler Youth members. Their main capacity was to terrorize, and this they did to the very last days of the war, when they were still engaged in sporadic and horrific murders of those wanting to avoid rather than promote pointless destruction as the Allies marched in. Ultimately, the partisan organizations of these weeks represented the regime’s lasting and massive capability for destructiveness. But just as great in these weeks was its capacity for self-destructiveness."

- "The End: The Defiance and Destruction of Hitler's Germany, 1944-1945", Sir Ian Kershaw
Sir Ian Kershaw
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Kershaw

The End: The Defiance and Destruction of Hitler's Germany, 1944-1945
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_En...944%E2%80%9345
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Old 02 Oct 17, 13:18
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Does Kershaw provide and sources for those casualty figures? Given the utter confusion, argument and internal party politics that surrounded the establishment of even a vestigial guerrilla and resistance movement I am surprised that they were capable of anything. Firstly it took months to agree if it should come under the Army the SS, the local party structure or be an autonomous Freikorps. It was to be manned by the Volkssturm, by Senior members of the Hitler Youth, by Army personnel. They would wear, SS uniforms, they would wear no uniforms at all. They would be bound by the rules of war, thewy would be bound by no rules whatsoever. Their targets were to be principally Allied armed forces, principally collaborators. Membership would be voluntary, membership would be compulsory etc etc. Sünderman was at loggerheads with Goebbels whilst Himmler poked his oar in and Hitler couldn't make his decisive mind up. No one really seemed to be in charge. They started talking about it in May 1944 (according to UK intelligence intercepts) but the first men allocated as leaders were not ordered to Czechoslovakia for training until late February 1945. In April 1945 Goebbels was complaining that nobody seemed to have the will to make any effort.
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Old 02 Oct 17, 13:33
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There was an organization set up for stay behind German troops codenamed "Werwolf". Most of them stayed in the woods a while and then went home when the stored food ran out. They did kill the first Mayor of Aachen appointed by the American Army, Dr Franz Oppenhoff.

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Yes, made up in many cases of kids. The Army executed a couple of them.
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Old 02 Oct 17, 13:39
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Yes, made up in many cases of kids. The Army executed a couple of them.
There were kids involved in the Volkssturm and kids who took it on themselves to fire on Allied troops but can you provide any verifiable sources of kids in the Werewolves or being executed by the Army - I assume you mean the US Army - other Armies were available.
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Old 02 Oct 17, 14:19
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By the time the Reich was getting invaded, Western Armies were getting a little tired of Germans shooting POW's and started to just shoot guys giving up. This is the kind of stuff that never even made it on the daily report. It was so hard to get replacements that many stressed out veterans were kept in their units. These guys would sometime just shoot Germans instead of escorting them back to a nice safe POW enclosure.

Once again see Rick Atkinson's "The Guns At Last Light".

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  #23  
Old 02 Oct 17, 14:48
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Yes, he does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Does Kershaw provide and sources for those casualty figures? Given the utter confusion, argument and internal party politics that surrounded the establishment of even a vestigial guerrilla and resistance movement I am surprised that they were capable of anything. Firstly it took months to agree if it should come under the Army the SS, the local party structure or be an autonomous Freikorps. It was to be manned by the Volkssturm, by Senior members of the Hitler Youth, by Army personnel. They would wear, SS uniforms, they would wear no uniforms at all. They would be bound by the rules of war, thewy would be bound by no rules whatsoever. Their targets were to be principally Allied armed forces, principally collaborators. Membership would be voluntary, membership would be compulsory etc etc. Sünderman was at loggerheads with Goebbels whilst Himmler poked his oar in and Hitler couldn't make his decisive mind up. No one really seemed to be in charge. They started talking about it in May 1944 (according to UK intelligence intercepts) but the first men allocated as leaders were not ordered to Czechoslovakia for training until late February 1945. In April 1945 Goebbels was complaining that nobody seemed to have the will to make any effort.

"Biddiscombe, Perry, "Werwolf! The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement 1944–1946", p. 276, and ch. 5 for many instances of minor, uncoordinated and sporadic resistance to the Allied occupiers by former Hitler Youth members, former SS men and other Nazi diehards that punctuated the late spring and summer of 1945 and beyond, though they were only tangentially related to the Werwolf groups that had been established in the last weeks of the war."
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Old 02 Oct 17, 14:48
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The wikipedia page gives more details and sources.
Werwolf

Dr Perry Biddiscombe has written two books and numerous articles on the subject.


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Old 02 Oct 17, 19:21
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Sebfrench we have a lot in common, I assure you I have posted this op honestly and sincerely, other then that I do not know what to tell you other then we are all equal in here providing our opinions, Mark V like you and I is another poster, we are all human lets just get along friend.


If you wanted to comment on the following feel free and Ill probably respond,

The documentary additionally shows a # of points,

-The German people were described as being increasingly agaisnt the Nuremberg trials. Werewolves attempted to target the Nuremberg trails this is shown at the 2 min mark of the video.

-The werewolves included women in their ranks. This is interesting about 15 % of the German werewolves were female.

-German and American officials put considerable resources into fighting the German resistance post WW2. Something had to be done about the attacks against allied occupational forces such as werewolf grenade attacks against US soliders as shown in the documentary(1 min mark)
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Old 03 Oct 17, 04:09
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In April 1945 Goebbels was complaining that nobody seemed to have the will to make any effort.
Oooh, really, what a pity! One wonders why... Poor Joseph, what a disappointment.
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Old 03 Oct 17, 14:14
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Oooh, really, what a pity! One wonders why... Poor Joseph, what a disappointment.
If Goebbels had an epitaph, it should be, "Really, I am so disappointed..."
All together now, "One and one is two, two and two is four...I'm feelin' so bad, 'cause I'm losin' the war..."
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Old 10 Oct 17, 02:03
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If Goebbels had an epitaph, it should be, "Really, I am so disappointed..."
All together now, "One and one is two, two and two is four...I'm feelin' so bad, 'cause I'm losin' the war..."
You know Susan, I saw the German ( armed? ) forces, and the German civilians Prior, during and after the closure of hostilities and nothing has surprised me more than this talk of Guerillas etc: They Were Sick To Death of everything concerning the War!! Their main aim was cooperation! They had empty bellies that needed filling, lost families to find, somewhere to work and get back to some sort of normality again. If we didn't shoot the Bastards they would have, given the chance!!! lcm1
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Old 10 Oct 17, 02:10
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There were kids involved in the Volkssturm and kids who took it on themselves to fire on Allied troops but can you provide any verifiable sources of kids in the Werewolves or being executed by the Army - I assume you mean the US Army - other Armies were available.
Hi Mark, I was not US Army, Where do you figure on getting 'Official' records of that sort of thing mate? Leave it be. lcm1
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Old 13 Oct 17, 11:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcm1 View Post
You know Susan, I saw the German ( armed? ) forces, and the German civilians Prior, during and after the closure of hostilities and nothing has surprised me more than this talk of Guerillas etc: They Were Sick To Death of everything concerning the War!! Their main aim was cooperation! They had empty bellies that needed filling, lost families to find, somewhere to work and get back to some sort of normality again. If we didn't shoot the Bastards they would have, given the chance!!! lcm1
Heh, Ken, if you believe his Diary, one of the main thing Little Joe was disappointed in was the German people.
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