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  #31  
Old 01 Oct 17, 11:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
So if the population of a town or a region wants to hold a vote on the introduction of sharia, your government(s) would allow it?

If the population of a town or a region wants to hold a vote on the expulsion of Muslim immigrants, your government(s) would allow it?

There is a legal framework for voting, which does regulate, in some cases, what issues you can vote on.
If you break it, authorities are free to prevent you from voting or to legally go after you if you did organise such a vote. If you resist law enforcement officers, then yes, you might experience the rough end of the law. How is that undemocratic?
There's the world of nitpicking and then there is the real world; the response by Spanish government was stupid and led to increasing support for Catalan. End of story.
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  #32  
Old 01 Oct 17, 11:48
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Originally Posted by Karri View Post
There's the world of nitpicking and then there is the real world; the response by Spanish government was stupid and led to increasing support for Catalan. End of story.
I thought you like legalistic nitpicking.
Or is that only when you oppose governments enforcing their borders?

Yes, in the real world a government enforced the law (passed through democratic vote cast by democratically-elected representatives) and there were some street clashes between LEOs and protesters. So what.
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  #33  
Old 01 Oct 17, 11:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
So if the population of a town or a region wants to hold a vote on the introduction of sharia, your government(s) would allow it?

If the population of a town or a region wants to hold a vote on the expulsion of Muslim immigrants, your government(s) would allow it?
IF a region would end up with such a majority opinion, force and coercion would only work as long as force and coercion is applied. In almost all circumstance it would mean putting off the inevitable for shorter or longer.

The trick is to head-off that kind if DEVELOPMENT well before ANYTHING like that starts approaching. If you get to that kind of situation there is something else profoundly out of whack that would have needed to be adressed first. The problem is with enough inaction, it's possible to end up with situation where fx a national government has simply lost legitimacy in a region. Don't do that, seems the obvious answer. Madrid seems dangerously close. (And also hope there isn't fx a powerful neighbour trying to manipulate your national politics to create and deepen divisions, working against your needs here.)

The Catalonians had a vote like this already in 2014. It was assumed it might start a dialogue and process of negotiation over the status of the region within the Spanish state. Madrid kind of just stonewalled it. So now the Catalonians are back with a repeat performance. If Madrid formerly thought it could make the issue go away by denial and the silent treatment, that clearly hasn't worked. So now it might resort to blunt force trauma instead?

Whichever it is, it's badly managed to the Nth degree by Madrid. It's a clear example of a situation that should have been dealt with differently YEARS ago. Where possibly, due to Madrid's unwillingness/inability to channel things into some other kind of working format, the situation might ALREDY have progressed to the point where Madrid has lost — where Spain loses because Catalonia will have to be kept against its will in the union through force and coercion. Which will only work as long as Madrid is willing to pay the costs for that, which will be huge. And when it no longer has the stomach for it, Catalonia will leave, and it will hate Spain for it.

Devolution of powers, a Catalonian National Assembly, etc., all could have worked to defuse the situation. What doesn't work is denial, followed by coercion to make Catalonia stay in union against its will.
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  #34  
Old 01 Oct 17, 12:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
How is that undemocratic?
In a political situation like the Catalonian one, the operative question is less "Is this legal?" but rather "Is this just?"

Catalonia has progressed to this situation, politically, due to a sense of an injustice being made to them. So far Madrid's response has been to pile on the injustices.

Almost everything dramatic happening politically at some point breaks down to enough people asking the question "Is this really fair?", and at some point enough of them act on the response.
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  #35  
Old 01 Oct 17, 13:17
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Fair ? What else will we hear ?

Life is not fair . especially not politics . If you want fair play go to the scouts .

Politics is not a question of be right or wrong, but of taking the law in your own hands : if you win,you are a hero, if you lose ,you are a loser .


Catalonia wants to be independent, Spain is saying : no . Unless there will be some dead (preferably children /women), Catalonia will lose . Dead are triggering independence , in Europe.Elsewhere the value of a human live is less than the value of the Venezuelan Bolivar .
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  #36  
Old 01 Oct 17, 14:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
I thought you like legalistic nitpicking.
Or is that only when you oppose governments enforcing their borders?
Legalist nitpicking? Not sure what that is. Nitpicking? Yes, as much as it means discussing the matter from all possible views. However, such a time in this forum has passed a long time ago.

Funny you should say governments instead of nations...
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  #37  
Old 01 Oct 17, 14:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
And why should we discuss the issue ? Scottish independence is the business for the Scots, Catalonian independence is the business for the inhabitants of Catalonia .

No one in Scotland and Catalonia is waiting for the opinion of foreigners .

Most people ignore where Catalonia is located and know only one thing about Barcelona : the FC and Messi .

It is not on us to decide what is good for Scotland and Catalonia .
That didn't stop everybody and his uncle wading into the Scottish independence debate.

This forum was set up to discuss the issues of the day, we all have an opinion on the matter. Whether or not the Catalans care what we think, is another matter - we owe ourselves the capacity to think.

IMO, Spain has fouled up royally on this one - to treat a peaceful, democratic movement like an invasion has done the Spanish state far more damage than anything the Catalans could do (oh, and I do know where Catalonia is, that it has its own language, and Franco hated the Catalans - definitely a point in their favour).
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  #38  
Old 01 Oct 17, 14:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Sounds rather vague. Wanting to secede just because you don't like other citizens or you think they are not up to your standards, or you dislike the central government's tax policy... I find these superficial reasons.



If democracy means you can break laws as you please then I don't want your weird idea of democracy.

And you can be peaceful and still break laws, with law enforcement still forced to enforce those laws.
If the bank evicts you from your mortgaged apartment for defaulting payments, are you still allowed to live there if you peacefully refuse to go? Or will policemen show up and eventually evict you?
If a cop asks you to exit your vehicle, you can peacefully refuse and he'll let you go? Or will he drag you out by force eventually, if necessary?
"Democracy," means that you can peacefully protest against laws that you see as unjust. This is what the Catalans are doing - constitutions are meant to serve the people.

There are a hundred ways to defuse such a situation, but Madrid has gone straight to the last resort - overwhelming force. Instead of a government trying to serve its people, it's seen as ruthlessly crushing a legitimate protest.

Far from preventing Catalonian secession, Spain has cast itself as the villain in this. The Catalans will point to this day to spread the word that their cause is being brutally repressed, like the old argument;

General; "We have wiped out the Rebel Front in Hang City !"

Prince: "Fool! There was no Rebel Front in Hang City, but there will be now !"


Today, Spain started to die as its democracy was shown to be a sham.

Oh, and the Kurds ? I support them wholeheartedly, but they're in urgent need of allies if they're going to survive, far less prosper.
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  #39  
Old 01 Oct 17, 15:19
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Examples of countries like Ukraine or certain African countries demonstrate that independence is not always a good idea and can produce a profoundly dysfunctional country. Independence is not a universal formula for success. Simon Bolivar, the Venezuelan national hero of the War of Independence, said that independence had been a curse for Venezuela. He said in many ways they had been better off as a colony. That was his conclusion when he was dying from old age which is sad and tragic.
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  #40  
Old 01 Oct 17, 15:20
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Originally Posted by the ace View Post
"Democracy," means that you can peacefully protest against laws that you see as unjust. This is what the Catalans are doing - constitutions are meant to serve the people.

There are a hundred ways to defuse such a situation, but Madrid has gone straight to the last resort - overwhelming force. Instead of a government trying to serve its people, it's seen as ruthlessly crushing a legitimate protest.

Far from preventing Catalonian secession, Spain has cast itself as the villain in this. The Catalans will point to this day to spread the word that their cause is being brutally repressed, like the old argument;

General; "We have wiped out the Rebel Front in Hang City !"

Prince: "Fool! There was no Rebel Front in Hang City, but there will be now !"


Today, Spain started to die as its democracy was shown to be a sham.

Oh, and the Kurds ? I support them wholeheartedly, but they're in urgent need of allies if they're going to survive, far less prosper.
I don't think Spanish democracy is a sham just because there were some street clashes. Such events are a dime a dozen all over the world, including in the US and other parts of Western Europe.

Spanish LEOs were legally ordered to seize the ballot boxes and other voting paraphernalia of an illegal referendum (as established by Spanish Constitutional Court and lower courts), at which point masses of people, incited by the secessionists, physically confronted them and tried to obstruct their actions, blocking streets, preventing them from entering buildings etc. They were met with the force available to riot police, as they would have been in any other country.

Those who incited and prepared the illegal referendum broke the agreements on which Catalonia enjoys its current autonomy and should be held accountable in Spanish courts.

Of course, now its a clash of wills - are the secessionists/rest of Spaniards willing to escalate or not, and how much? Are the Catalan grievances so severe as to make it worth it? Rest of Spain seems more than willing to stand its ground no matter the escalation (see the Basque issue).
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  #41  
Old 01 Oct 17, 15:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Legalist nitpicking? Not sure what that is. Nitpicking? Yes, as much as it means discussing the matter from all possible views. However, such a time in this forum has passed a long time ago.
Why, aren't we doing just that? You have a view, I have a different one, and we're discussing the matter from these points of view.
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  #42  
Old 01 Oct 17, 15:41
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Originally Posted by the ace View Post
That didn't stop everybody and his uncle wading into the Scottish independence debate.

This forum was set up to discuss the issues of the day, we all have an opinion on the matter. Whether or not the Catalans care what we think, is another matter - we owe ourselves the capacity to think.

IMO, Spain has fouled up royally on this one - to treat a peaceful, democratic movement like an invasion has done the Spanish state far more damage than anything the Catalans could do (oh, and I do know where Catalonia is, that it has its own language, and Franco hated the Catalans - definitely a point in their favour).
You forget the most important / better : only important thing : is independence of Catalonia good for Scotland ?
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  #43  
Old 01 Oct 17, 15:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
I don't think Spanish democracy is a sham just because there were some street clashes. Such events are a dime a dozen all over the world, including in the US and other parts of Western Europe
Who does?

This is a region with a distinct identity, and a language that was effectively outlawed for 40 years by a Dictator. He's long gone, but the democracy that replaced it sort of just assumed no problems with how this region was supposed to be integrated with the unitary Spanish state, run from Madrid, when it IS the successor state to the dictatorship that was ALSO a unitary Spanish state, run from Madrid.

I.e. there are potentially problems re the legitimacy of the central authority in this state. It's inherited, and was left to it from a situation growing out off the barrel of a gun. Hence a renegotiation of the basis of the distribution of power could very well be justified. Hence devolution of power to regions etc. just might be a very good idea.

The problem isn't a fracas between police and some group. It's that 71% of Catalans are behind the referendum, and Madrid has refused to even recognize this, opting for strong-arm tactics and no dialogue. Which comes at the end of a decade long process already.

Funny things it, had the referendum been accepted, odds are very good it would have returned a vote in favour of continued union.

Instead we now have a situation FAR too much like Castillians deciding they have a right to tell Catalans what they can and can't do. And beat them when they disagree. Just like the olden times.

Just assume this is how London would have handled the Scottish referendum for perspective... (Things like this USED to happen also in the UK, in Scotland, people beaten up and hauled off for sedition, but around the time of the Napoleonic wars.)

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  #44  
Old 01 Oct 17, 15:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post

(oh, and I do know where Catalonia is, that it has its own language, and Franco hated the Catalans - definitely a point in their favour).
that proves that you are not an impartial observer: one of the reasons why you support the Catalans is that Franco hated the Catalans (for which there is no proof ) and that you hate Franco .

Franco has nothing to do with this referendum : he died 42 years ago .

You are arguing as this :

I hate Franco (I don't know why : you are not Spanish)

Franco hates the Catalans

Thus : I support the Catalans .

This proves my observation that it is impossible to discuss impartially what happens in Catalonia : all we hear is : Finland is more democratic than Romania and it is the fault of Franco . The next posts will go about the Winter War and the Battle of Culloden .
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Old 01 Oct 17, 15:59
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Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
Who does?

This is a region with a distinct identity, and a language that was effectively outlawed for 40 years by a Dictator.

The problem isn't a fracas between police and some group. It's that 71% of Catalans are behind the referendum
1) This is not true : books could be printed in Catalan .

2 ) If 71 % of the Catalans supported indepence, why was a referendum needed ?
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