HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II

Notices and Announcements

Armor in World War II Discuss all aspects & disciplines of World War II Armor here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 04 Oct 17, 15:56
Merkava188's Avatar
Merkava188 Merkava188 is offline
Major
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Doug Williams
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sierra Vista
Posts: 910
Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99]
But the King Tiger was a "big mother. It weighed as much as the current models of the M1 Abrams. Those that were lost in the war were the result of mechanical breakdowns.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04 Oct 17, 17:35
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,613
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
It would have remained a serious threat well into the 1970s, but nobody even tried to keep it in service after 1945.
There is a limit to the complications modern soldiers will put up with.

Fun Fact; the 100mm gun of the T-54 could penetrate 185mm of armor. The maximum thickness of a Tiger II's armor was 180mm.
I sometimes wonder just how much of a coincidence that was...
I never take much notice of theoretical penetrative ability of guns. Real life throws numerous issues to reduce said figures.

For example, Churchill crews, both Soviet and British, loved their tanks. This was because of the armour. One reason was that it had a 3% nickel content, compared to 1% with Soviet armour plate, meaning it was less likely to spall with non penetrating hits. The second was its usual thickness where it was likely to be hit, ie 3.5". This figure essentially defeats the Pak/KwK/StuK 40 family of weapons. While I can find plenty of examples using anecdotal evidence, the proof in the pudding is that the best Sherman, the M4A3E8 had this thickness of the turret front, the single most likely area to be hit. The T-34/85 also had this thickness on the turret front. Further, the M25 was designed with this level of armour, the M26 later given the go ahead due to the perceived threat of more powerful weapons. If 1944 designers are using 3.5" armour to protect their tanks, you can easily deduce this was what was needed most of the time.

There are a host of reasons why a round will not penetrate as expected. The shell may not have been satisfactory made, the metallurgy incorrect, or propellant uneven or chemically imperfect. Any cap or ballistic cap may have been initially fitted incorrectly, or damaged during the logistical chain. Barrel wear can make a difference etc etc. Essentially, an AT round will almost never go through a greater armour thickness than stated (unless the armour itself was poor), but there are plenty of reasons why it would fail to penetrated what could normally be expected. There was a good reason why even 88mm's would wait until Matilda 2's or T-34's were at point blank range before opening up. Theoretical penetration is dubious at the best of times.

As for the 100mm, if AP was that important, they would have fitted it to production IS-2's. The Soviets chose plentiful supply of guns and rounds instead, with their greater HE ability.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04 Oct 17, 17:36
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,613
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
But the King Tiger was a "big mother. It weighed as much as the current models of the M1 Abrams. Those that were lost in the war were the result of mechanical breakdowns.
Or being shot at.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06 Oct 17, 02:48
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,613
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Despite some concerns I would suggest the next contender is the Char B1bis. Very powerful, it has a 75mm for HE work, and the best AT on any main tank at this time. It also had armour that was almost immune to enemy AT guns, and had a decent range of 200km.

Possible contenders so far ?

Char B1bis in 1939-40.
Somua S-35 in 39-40.
T-34 in 41-2.
M4 in 42-3.
Churchill 43-45
IS-2 in 44-5.
King Tiger in 44-5.
Comet in 45.
M26 in 45.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07 Oct 17, 11:55
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,613
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The Char D2 is another contender. Better armed and armoured than its German counterparts, and a third of the price of a Char B1bis.

Possible contenders so far ?

Char B1bis in 1939-40.
Somua S-35 in 39-40.
Char D2 in 39-40.
T-34 in 41-2.
M4 in 42-3.
Churchill 43-45
IS-2 in 44-5.
King Tiger in 44-5.
Comet in 45.
M26 in 45.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07 Oct 17, 15:46
Moulin's Avatar
Moulin Moulin is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Monroe
Posts: 2,361
Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Or being shot at.
from memory, does any one have stats on KTigers' breakdowns?
I thought at the Battle of the Bulge breakdowns were common?
but they also abandoned some?
plus some of the roads were not conducive to heavy tank travel

http://tank-photographs.s3-website-e...k-II-1944.html

plus under powered
Quote:
Building a new engine capable of 1000 hp would probably have made the Tiger II the first main battle tank, years in advance.
Quote:
Subsequent failures, all duly noted, were attributed only to the lack of lubricants and spare parts, a common fate shared by all units until May 1945.
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww...onigstiger.php

Last edited by Moulin; 07 Oct 17 at 16:25..
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07 Oct 17, 17:06
Merkava188's Avatar
Merkava188 Merkava188 is offline
Major
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Doug Williams
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sierra Vista
Posts: 910
Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99]
The one problem that Allied tanks had in 39-41 was the lack of radios in ever tank. At the start of WW2 only the unit commanders tanks had radios.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07 Oct 17, 18:14
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,613
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
The one problem that Allied tanks had in 39-41 was the lack of radios in ever tank. At the start of WW2 only the unit commanders tanks had radios.
Are you thinking of the Soviets?
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07 Oct 17, 18:21
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,613
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
from memory, does any one have stats on KTigers' breakdowns?
I thought at the Battle of the Bulge breakdowns were common?
but they also abandoned some?
plus some of the roads were not conducive to heavy tank travel

http://tank-photographs.s3-website-e...k-II-1944.html

plus under powered




http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww...onigstiger.php
Actually, King Tigers, after the initial batch, were actually fairly reliable, nearly as much as the Mk IV, and certainly much more than the original T1 or Panther. If a King Tiger was lost, it was often due to combat.

When the US and UK conducted analysis on tank combats, it should be noted that the type of tank was not considered important enough to be noted. What was noted was where the opponent was just using tanks, probably in a counter attack, or using a Stug and towed ATG combo, probably used defensively.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08 Oct 17, 11:02
Moulin's Avatar
Moulin Moulin is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Monroe
Posts: 2,361
Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99] Moulin is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Actually, King Tigers, after the initial batch, were actually fairly reliable, nearly as much as the Mk IV, and certainly much more than the original T1 or Panther. If a King Tiger was lost, it was often due to combat.

When the US and UK conducted analysis on tank combats, it should be noted that the type of tank was not considered important enough to be noted. What was noted was where the opponent was just using tanks, probably in a counter attack, or using a Stug and towed ATG combo, probably used defensively.
thank you
I found a link in my above post with some information
Tiger 2 is a great example of German engineering/ design/problem solving
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #41  
Old 11 Oct 17, 16:35
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,613
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The next potential mbt is an obvious one, the Pz IV with the KwK 37 prior to Barbarossa. It didn't have a decent AT round, but in all other respects was a decent afv, good enough to be used until the end of the war. When uparmed, the F2/G model was probably the best tank in combat anywhere, until the arrival of the Sherman at the second El Alamein.

Possible contenders so far ?

Char B1bis in 1939-40.
Somua S-35 in 39-40.
Char D2 in 39-40.
Pz IV in 39-43
T-34 in 41-2.
M4 in 42-3.
Churchill 43-45
IS-2 in 44-5.
King Tiger in 44-5.
Comet in 45.
M26 in 45.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11 Oct 17, 18:47
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 26,961
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The Panzer III may be what you are thinking of. The Mark III started with a 37mm main gun, upgunned low power 50mm, most were then rearmed with a 50mm high velocity gun. A few received the 7.5cm/24 that had once armed the first Mark IV's. Of course most of the hulls were converted into Stugs.

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12 Oct 17, 12:30
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,613
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The Panzer III may be what you are thinking of. The Mark III started with a 37mm main gun, upgunned low power 50mm, most were then rearmed with a 50mm high velocity gun. A few received the 7.5cm/24 that had once armed the first Mark IV's. Of course most of the hulls were converted into Stugs.

Pruitt
?

I definitely meant the Panzer IV, as given by the gun and marks stated. The III's KwK 36 was fairly rubbish against all but the lightest of French tanks in 1940, which is over 3000 of the 40mm armoured types (H35/R35/S-35/B1bis etc). Once Barbarossa was launched no III can ever really be considered a decent MBT with the T-34 now in play, not even with upgunning to the 50mm KwK 39 .
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12 Oct 17, 14:29
Mountain Man's Avatar
Mountain Man Mountain Man is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Rocky Mts, USA
Posts: 68,820
Mountain Man has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
It would have remained a serious threat well into the 1970s, but nobody even tried to keep it in service after 1945.
There is a limit to the complications modern soldiers will put up with.

Fun Fact; the 100mm gun of the T-54 could penetrate 185mm of armor. The maximum thickness of a Tiger II's armor was 180mm.
I sometimes wonder just how much of a coincidence that was...
However, IIRC, The Tiger II's armor was sloped.

As for not keeping it around after WWII, the Germans were forbidden to maintain an army, so no tanks, period, which means we can't fault the Germans for not keeping the T-II.
__________________
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12 Oct 17, 14:31
101combatvet's Avatar
101combatvet 101combatvet is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shooter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC, Chesapeake Bay or Lima
Posts: 15,758
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Good list, I might consider replacing the King Tiger with the Panther.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The next potential mbt is an obvious one, the Pz IV with the KwK 37 prior to Barbarossa. It didn't have a decent AT round, but in all other respects was a decent afv, good enough to be used until the end of the war. When uparmed, the F2/G model was probably the best tank in combat anywhere, until the arrival of the Sherman at the second El Alamein.

Possible contenders so far ?

Char B1bis in 1939-40.
Somua S-35 in 39-40.
Char D2 in 39-40.
Pz IV in 39-43
T-34 in 41-2.
M4 in 42-3.
Churchill 43-45
IS-2 in 44-5.
King Tiger in 44-5.
Comet in 45.
M26 in 45.
__________________
My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 17:22.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.