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  #16  
Old 28 Sep 17, 10:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTCS View Post
And therein lies one of the problems. If you reduce the manning level of a ship you increase the workload of the crew hence reduce the effectiveness of the crew. Seems I have been reading a few articles that say that too much pressure is being put on the crews hence more "accidents". Just a thought.

Also when you reduce the size of a crew you reduce the damage control parties.

As far as I'm concerned that Navy needs to rethink their entire manning objectives and stop these "social programs".


We tried to run our frigates on a crew of 90.the ships can do it but these days it 120 up to 180 or 200 when they deploy. Small crews are a Hassel and will back fire if stressed.
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  #17  
Old 30 Sep 17, 16:51
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Surface combatants indeed still have a role today. The thing is getting them in enough numbers witch is a something any navy needs to consider.
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  #18  
Old 10 Oct 17, 09:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Okay does a SC have a role in modern combat?

Imo they are largely obsolete. The only thing they are is targets. Subs rule the seas and SCS's are there to just show the flag and be targets.

Or do they have surviavability? I've got serious doubts about our current navy and whether they are just expensive targets...

It's great that we've got Marines on ships but are they just targets???

Just curious, what do you guys think?

Should we decommission our sea-lift capacity till we can defend it?


Clearly China and Russia disagree with your assessment. With that being said, it is my opinion that the LCS is a failed program that needs to be shelved ASAP.

Quote:
The Russian Gepard-class frigates (Project 1166.1) is a class of frigates that were intended as successors to the earlier Koni-class frigates and Grisha, and Parchim-class corvettes. The first unit of the class, Yastreb (Hawk), was laid down at the Zelenodol'sk Zavod shipyard at Tatarstan in 1991. She was launched in July 1993, after which she began fitting out; fitting was nearly completed by late 1995, when it was suspended due to lack of funds. Renamed Tatarstan, the ship was finally completed in July 2002, and became the flagship of the Caspian Flotilla. She has two sister ships, Albatros (renamed Dagestan), and Burevestnik (Storm Petrel), which was still under construction as of 2012.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepard-class_frigate

Quote:
China's Jiangnan Shipyard has launched the country's first Type 055-class guided-missile destroyer on order for the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN).

The 180 m ship, which will be largest-ever surface combatant to date once inducted into service, was launched on 28 June at the company's facilities near Shanghai. Work on the platform, which is expected to play a major escort role in China's carrier and amphibious task groups, began in 2014.
http://www.janes.com/article/71903/c...batant-to-date
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  #19  
Old 15 Oct 17, 18:00
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Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
The problem with lesser tech ships that can take a hit is that sometimes, because of that lesser tech, they have to take a hit.
if you're fighting a near peer navy you're going to take a hit no matter what.
which makes it an issue of how do you make sure that a ship, but most importantly the crew can make it back to port after taking a hit or two.
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  #20  
Old 15 Oct 17, 20:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General_Jacke View Post
if you're fighting a near peer navy you're going to take a hit no matter what.
which makes it an issue of how do you make sure that a ship, but most importantly the crew can make it back to port after taking a hit or two.
Historically, you increase the armor, weaponry and technology - and therefore the size and power plant - and end up in "dreadnought" type of arms race. A 180 meter "guided missile destroyer" thus becomes a sort of insider joke.

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  #21  
Old 15 Oct 17, 22:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
What's the Future of surface combatants?
..does a SC have a role in modern combat?
Imo they are largely obsolete. The only thing they are is targets. Subs rule the seas and SCS's are there to just show the flag and be targets..
Subs are good but not infallible. For example they have to creep around at walking pace to keep their engine noise down and prevent them being detected by ships passive sonars, and the oceans are such big places that it could take forever to get around at walking pace.
Also, subs can't use their active "pinging" sonars or they'd give away their position, so they have to keep their sonar in passive "listening" mode to listen for ships engine noise, it's good but it only gives them an approximate idea of where a ship is.
Ships on the other hand can use their own active sonar any time they like to get a precise fix on a sub.
Also ships helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft can drop fields of sonarbuoys all over the place to detect subs, and choppers can also use "dipping" sonars on cables to scoot around dipping here and there.
Finally if a sub fires torpedoes they're so noisy that they can be heard coming miles away, so a ship could drop countermeasures and do evasive manoeuvres.
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  #22  
Old 15 Oct 17, 22:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Subs are good but not infallible. For example they have to creep around at walking pace to keep their engine noise down and prevent them being detected by ships passive sonars, and the oceans are such big places that it could take forever to get around at walking pace.
Also, subs can't use their active "pinging" sonars or they'd give away their position, so they have to keep their sonar in passive "listening" mode to listen for ships engine noise, it's good but it only gives them an approximate idea of where a ship is.
Ships on the other hand can use their own active sonar any time they like to get a precise fix on a sub.
Also ships helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft can drop fields of sonarbuoys all over the place to detect subs, and choppers can also use "dipping" sonars on cables to scoot around dipping here and there.
Finally if a sub fires torpedoes they're so noisy that they can be heard coming miles away, so a ship could drop countermeasures and do evasive manoeuvres.
Idk. watch this...
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  #23  
Old 15 Oct 17, 22:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Idk. watch this...
Thanks, but don't attach too much importance to that video.
The write-up under the vid at youtube asks the question-
"How was the Gotland able to evade the Reaganís elaborate antisubmarine defenses involving multiple ships and aircraft employing a multitude of sensors?"

The answer is that it wasn't a real shooting war, otherwise everybody would have been on full alert and the sub would have been toasted in five minutes..
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  #24  
Old 15 Oct 17, 23:56
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Here's what I propose. Big ships cost big money and no one seems to have the heart to build them, especially in a political environment where every dollar is scrutinized. Why not build many ships for the price of that one ship, but equip it with cheaper modern weapons or modernized versions of weapons already in the inventory?

It can be based on the Legend-class National Security Cutter or base it off the Freedom-class littoral combat ships, AKA large ocean-going corvettes. Or we should really just have the Coast Guard and Navy agree to use a common hull that is used by both but is modular, so that each service can customize each ship to its needs. For instance a Coast Guard corvette may not need the SeaRAM or Hellfire capabilities but the Navy would and they could be installed and uninstalled based on mission needs. Or the Navy may order some corvettes for anti-air warfare and some for anti-surface warfare.

With the threat to fleets being increasingly by small fast ships equipped with supersonic anti-ship missiles or just kamikaze attacks, a bunch of smaller ships with smaller weapons would screen the perimeter of the fleet against such threats and engage them with various types of weapons. First rotary-winged UAV's can scan 55 nautical miles out to look for threats, the Bell 407 version should be able to recon out to 162 nmi. If ships appear to be armed and on an intercept heading of the most valuable ship, alert them to turn around and show the crews that the "recon" drones are armed and can sink them at will. If drones or helicopters aren't available, fail to identify the ships as armed or are shot down, then corvettes can break off to engage by firing warning shots with their 57 mm Bofors cannon. If they still continue you could use the 30 mm Bushmaster chain guns or a choice of missiles. A Hellfire or Sea Griffin may be overkill to sink a small unarmored boat, or worse, not enough are available to stop the number of craft coming at you. That's where the Spike (not Israeli ATGM Spike) or guided Hydra missiles could come in handy. The launcher would be a miniaturized version of the SeaRAM and can probably be mounted at bow, starboard and port, or a large version mounted on the superstructure. When the swarm approaches within range of the missiles, all missiles are fired and reloaded. If all missiles are expended and the survivors continue their attack that's when all gunners open fire with their guns, to include .50 cals. Basically the idea is to use these corvettes as fodder against threats trying to score hits against a carrier, guided missile cruiser, guided missile destroyer, amphibious assault ship, dock landing ship, amphibious transport dock, or amphibious command ship.


The ships:
Legend-class National Security Cutter


Freedom-class littoral combat ship


The missiles:
NAVAIR Spike


Precision guided Hydra 70


The UAV/UCAVs:
MQ-8B Fire Scout


MQ-8C Fire Scout


Helicopters:
Seahawk


Eurocopter Panther
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  #25  
Old 16 Oct 17, 00:10
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The problem is that industry is overselling smaller ships with less crew that are basically disposable. There are some European ships that are less than 5000 tons that could be modified to fit our needs better. I don't like the LCS Class at all. Even if you double the crew size and include billeting for them. I bet they still try to get the cook out of the galley to guide helicopters to land.

We also need more people to crew new ships and maintain them. We have had a couple of RIF's we need to overcome. We need to get back the ability to fix our ships without sending them into a civilian dockyard.

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  #26  
Old 16 Oct 17, 08:18
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Lcs are badly under staffed. No personal for dge control or enduring combat losses.

They all so under armed. Contemporary ships of that size have VLC cells for anti air missiles, 76mm main gun, multiple auto cannons either as deck guns or air defence guns and far larger crews. Even small ships out class it in a fight.

I would a south african warrior class OPV a SAAR 4.5 middle boat with out missiles as a winer. It a small fast boat that hard to pick up in choppy season that packs a 76mm main gun. Basically who the hell though a 55mm would work
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  #27  
Old 17 Oct 17, 19:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frtigern View Post
Here's what I propose. Big ships cost big money and no one seems to have the heart to build them, especially in a political environment where every dollar is scrutinized. Why not build many ships for the price of that one ship, but equip it with cheaper modern weapons or modernized versions of weapons already in the inventory?

It can be based on the Legend-class National Security Cutter or base it off the Freedom-class littoral combat ships, AKA large ocean-going corvettes. Or we should really just have the Coast Guard and Navy agree to use a common hull that is used by both but is modular, so that each service can customize each ship to its needs. For instance a Coast Guard corvette may not need the SeaRAM or Hellfire capabilities but the Navy would and they could be installed and uninstalled based on mission needs. Or the Navy may order some corvettes for anti-air warfare and some for anti-surface warfare.

With the threat to fleets being increasingly by small fast ships equipped with supersonic anti-ship missiles or just kamikaze attacks, a bunch of smaller ships with smaller weapons would screen the perimeter of the fleet against such threats and engage them with various types of weapons. First rotary-winged UAV's can scan 55 nautical miles out to look for threats, the Bell 407 version should be able to recon out to 162 nmi. If ships appear to be armed and on an intercept heading of the most valuable ship, alert them to turn around and show the crews that the "recon" drones are armed and can sink them at will. If drones or helicopters aren't available, fail to identify the ships as armed or are shot down, then corvettes can break off to engage by firing warning shots with their 57 mm Bofors cannon. If they still continue you could use the 30 mm Bushmaster chain guns or a choice of missiles. A Hellfire or Sea Griffin may be overkill to sink a small unarmored boat, or worse, not enough are available to stop the number of craft coming at you. That's where the Spike (not Israeli ATGM Spike) or guided Hydra missiles could come in handy. The launcher would be a miniaturized version of the SeaRAM and can probably be mounted at bow, starboard and port, or a large version mounted on the superstructure. When the swarm approaches within range of the missiles, all missiles are fired and reloaded. If all missiles are expended and the survivors continue their attack that's when all gunners open fire with their guns, to include .50 cals. Basically the idea is to use these corvettes as fodder against threats trying to score hits against a carrier, guided missile cruiser, guided missile destroyer, amphibious assault ship, dock landing ship, amphibious transport dock, or amphibious command ship.


The ships:
Legend-class National Security Cutter


Freedom-class littoral combat ship


The missiles:
NAVAIR Spike


Precision guided Hydra 70


The UAV/UCAVs:
MQ-8B Fire Scout


MQ-8C Fire Scout


Helicopters:
Seahawk


Eurocopter Panther
so **** the sailors onboard these smaller ships with less capability is what you're saying?

big ships have greater survivability because they have more water tight compartments that require getting flooded before sinking. smaller ships are more easily sunk and all around more easy to get mission kill.

also smaller intercept missiles have shorter range, shorter range means either you spam missiles to ensure an intercept or you risk not having time to launch a second missile before getting hit.
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  #28  
Old 17 Oct 17, 20:01
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Historically, you increase the armor, weaponry and technology - and therefore the size and power plant - and end up in "dreadnought" type of arms race. A 180 meter "guided missile destroyer" thus becomes a sort of insider joke.

my point exactly. hell lets not even talk about war, how many sailors would have died in the recent collisions if the burkes had a few inches of armor instead of 1/4" unarmored steel for their hull?
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