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  #1  
Old 24 Sep 17, 23:01
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What's the Future of surface combatants?

Okay does a SC have a role in modern combat?

Imo they are largely obsolete. The only thing they are is targets. Subs rule the seas and SCS's are there to just show the flag and be targets.

Or do they have surviavability? I've got serious doubts about our current navy and whether they are just expensive targets...

It's great that we've got Marines on ships but are they just targets???

Just curious, what do you guys think?

Should we decommission our sea-lift capacity till we can defend it?


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  #2  
Old 24 Sep 17, 23:31
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I would say it all depends on the mission that they are expected to undertake.
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  #3  
Old 25 Sep 17, 00:06
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There is a need for surface combatants. They can defend against air attack, Ballistic Missile Defense, anti submarine warfare, convoy defense and naval gunfire. A submarine would be hard pressed to do these things well. Then you have political tasks, like showing the flag and enforcing blockades.

My main problem with Naval ship designs is they can't agree on designs. I would like to see numbers of lesser tech warships that can take hits and survive. We will still need the technicians and wherewithal to fix things that break down. The LCS is an example of taking things too far where you need a Commander to command a ship with about 80 crew and you are so shorthanded the cook (there is only one!) has to stop what they are doing to go help helicopters land! These new ships also need to have enough berths to handle a reinforced crew. It is bad for morale to have three shifts hot bunking each bed. I would rather see hammocks instead.

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Old 25 Sep 17, 01:00
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There's an old saying in the US Navy-
"Whenever trouble flares up anywhere in the world the first thing the President does is to move to a world map and ask his Naval Chief "Where are our carriers?"

That sums up the awesome hitting power of a US Task Force, which is composed not just of a carrier at the centre, but also concentric rings of vital anti-air/anti-sub cruisers and destroyers to protect it, so yeah I'd say surface combatants still have an essential place on the world chessboard..

Below- Sarah Palin visits the USS Stennis in 2009, the dialog probably went something like this-
SARAH- "Can I hit that big red button to launch an airstrike against a herd of mooses that are swimming across the Bering Strait from Russia to Alaska?"
CAPTAIN- "On what grounds ma'am?"
SARAH- "They're commie mooses"


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Old 25 Sep 17, 06:29
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Overkill is a an issue. If you have an adversary using small low tech vessels to carry out hit and run attacks on shipping, operating out of a fragmented coastline then a submarine or a carrier force is a rather clumsy, expensive and down right stupid response. There will be times when the traditional "send a gunboat" still applies albeit a rather more agile and sophisticated gunboat.
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Old 25 Sep 17, 10:43
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The problem with lesser tech ships that can take a hit is that sometimes, because of that lesser tech, they have to take a hit.
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Old 25 Sep 17, 15:30
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I don't see the LCS as the future of surface combatants. The Zummwalt-class DDGs maybe. I've heard some wanting to develop the Zummwalts into a 21st century battleship.
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Old 25 Sep 17, 16:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
The problem with lesser tech ships that can take a hit is that sometimes, because of that lesser tech, they have to take a hit.
There is a difference between small and low tech and sometimes large ships are not what one needs
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Old 25 Sep 17, 16:54
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They definitely have a role. Carrier protection has already been mentioned, but also the ability to direct fires of various kinds around the globe, anti-piracy & smuggling too.

The question I think is more around the size and composition. The RN did an interesting thought piece on 'Black Swan' class sloops, something smaller than a destroyer but more numerous. For the USN with its bigger budget, there are maybe different answers.
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Old 25 Sep 17, 17:32
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The Black Swans and the modified Black Swan Classes were mainly for Convoy Defense. They were slightly smaller, slower Destroyers with no torpedoes. They had a gun armament that was built for AA work and carried a lot of depth charges. The British had some older Destroyers that were the same size (1300 tons). After the war, the RN got rid of most of them and started replacing Sloops with full size Destroyers. The class soldiered on into the 60's in smaller navies.

The US Navy should look into a class of ships with similar characteristics. It will not come easy as the Navy is bound right now to reduce crew sizes severely.

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Old 25 Sep 17, 23:26
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Quote:
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The US Navy should look into a class of ships with similar characteristics. It will not come easy as the Navy is bound right now to reduce crew sizes severely.
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And therein lies one of the problems. If you reduce the manning level of a ship you increase the workload of the crew hence reduce the effectiveness of the crew. Seems I have been reading a few articles that say that too much pressure is being put on the crews hence more "accidents". Just a thought.

Also when you reduce the size of a crew you reduce the damage control parties.

As far as I'm concerned that Navy needs to rethink their entire manning objectives and stop these "social programs".
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Old 26 Sep 17, 00:21
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The bean counters have been saying for years that retirement pay is soaking up the Defense Budget. Every time pay goes up so does retirement pay. My question is, why is retirement pensions being counted in the Defense Budget?

They could retire half the Admirals and Generals in the Pentagon right now and still have Brass tripping over each other trying to look busy there. Many of the Two Stars and up have thirty years in. We need more warriors and fewer bureaucrats. Fewer bureaucrats could mean fewer social programs.

We could have modernized a bunch of ships that were nearing twenty years service but someone told them that they would have to cut the building budget if we did that. If we cut back on building ships some Congress critters will be upset!

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Old 26 Sep 17, 01:53
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Trump is regularly saying that he's going to beef up the armed forces including the Navy, for example we saw him commissioning the supercarrier Gerald R. Ford earlier this year, so I think it's safe to say he's got their backs..

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Old 27 Sep 17, 15:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The Black Swans and the modified Black Swan Classes were mainly for Convoy Defense. They were slightly smaller, slower Destroyers with no torpedoes. They had a gun armament that was built for AA work and carried a lot of depth charges. The British had some older Destroyers that were the same size (1300 tons). After the war, the RN got rid of most of them and started replacing Sloops with full size Destroyers. The class soldiered on into the 60's in smaller navies.

The US Navy should look into a class of ships with similar characteristics. It will not come easy as the Navy is bound right now to reduce crew sizes severely.

Pruitt
Seeing as it is unclassified and openly available on the net, I will post a link

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...lack_SwanU.pdf
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Old 28 Sep 17, 09:22
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Submarines can do sea denial not sea Control. Submarines can not carry our the day day job of a navy. The primary job of a navy is to support the army.

This includs naval gun fire support, logistical support, escorting the army across the water, extra extra and yes they all so trying to stop the other guy doing this. Subs can do missions to stop this, conduct very pricy NGF support and covert ops. They can do escorting but not against fast small stealth boats, aircraft or missiles. So surface ships will not go any where any time soon. No matter how much h better aircraft carriers and subs are they just can't fill full all the critical needs. It like have a air force with only fighter jets and attack helicopters.
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