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  #1  
Old 19 Sep 17, 09:43
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Tank Battle of Brody 2330 June 1941

It is alleged that between 2330 June 1941 5200 Soviet tanks clashed with 750 tanks of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front.

The Soviets suffered a crushing defeat despite having overwhelming superiority.

If the data is true then Brody and not Kursk, was the greatest tank battle of WW2.

However, Brody was a Soviet defeat so it was in Moscow's interest to try to hide this defeat and instead promote Kursk. Soviet/Russian historiography seems to have completely forgotten Brody.

TIK makes a clever point. He thinks Moscow doesn't want to be remembered as the country that lost the greatest tank battle of the war. That's too much for their ego to take, because they fancy themselves undisputed champions of tank warfare.

There is quite a lot of buzz about the Battle of Brody on the Internet but unfortunately very little reliable research. Only 1 English language book on the subject, written by a Russian, who appears to be biased.

Military Wikia link here

TIK's Lecture here



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Last edited by MonsterZero; 19 Sep 17 at 09:52..
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  #2  
Old 19 Sep 17, 09:55
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Actually it is fairly well covered in Robert Forczyk's book "Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front 1941-42 Schwerpunkt".
The Red Army committed their forces piecemeal, unsupported and uncoordinated and they lost badly.
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Old 19 Sep 17, 11:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianE View Post
Actually it is fairly well covered in Robert Forczyk's book "Tank Warfare on the Eastern Front 1941-42 Schwerpunkt".
The Red Army committed their forces piecemeal, unsupported and uncoordinated and they lost badly.
I have this and the second volume, and can recommend them highly .
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  #4  
Old 19 Sep 17, 11:53
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There are at least two detailed studies of the the battle in English, both written by Russians and both take the Soviets to task for the failures so I didn't see much of the bias the OP claimed.

The Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941


Dubno 1941: The Greatest Tank Battle of the Second World War



I'd recommend both books for those interested in an indepth look at the battle/
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  #5  
Old 19 Sep 17, 11:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
It is alleged that between 2330 June 1941 5200 Soviet tanks clashed with 750 tanks of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front.
Kiev military district had some 5000 tanks both serviceable and non-serviceable. In reality a large part of them never clashed with Wehrmacht tanks as they were operating against German infantry of the 17 Army (e.g. a corps commanded by an infamous general Vlasov) or were simply passively guarding the Romanian border.
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The Soviets suffered a crushing defeat despite having overwhelming superiority.
Actually the Army Group South was equal in personnel to the South-West Front or even had some numerical edge.
Quote:
If the data is true then Brody and not Kursk, was the greatest tank battle of WW2.
There were more AFVs involved from both sides at Kursk. And more men, guns and planes. Besides I always wondered what is the "tank battle" and how it is different from "non-tank battle".
That the battle is somehow "unknown" is simply not true. Already in Soviet period it was touched by both official history and memoirs (Zhukov, Bagramyan, Rokossovsky, Katukov, Poppel, Ryabyshev, Moskalenko etc). A pretty good modern source is the book by A.Isayev who also earned his PhD degree by this research.
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  #6  
Old 19 Sep 17, 11:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
Military Wikia link here
He-he, the guys count 2 and 18 Mech Corps as present at Brody.
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  #7  
Old 19 Sep 17, 12:49
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"The bloody triangle" is a great book!
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  #8  
Old 19 Sep 17, 13:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
As a usual custom the lecturer confuses Battle of Kursk, operation "Citadel" and the battle of Prokhorovka so we have a mash potato of a lecture. Ok, to make it clear: operation "Citadel" was only the first phase of the battle of Kursk which also included Soviet offensives at Orel and Belgorod-Kharkov. Battle of Prokohorovka was only an episode (a large one though) in operation "Citadel". Then, you will be laughing but it also consisted of several parts and the battle at Prokhorovka station proper aka so-called "tank field" was only one of them.

Last edited by Artyom_A; 19 Sep 17 at 13:59..
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  #9  
Old 19 Sep 17, 14:24
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Continuing with Youtube video:
Quote:
Isayev doesn't give the number of tanks by days
Ok, may be you didn't know that but a greater part of Red Army's documents from the summer of 1941 simply didn't survive. Hence a way more gaps and less details compared with 1944 or 1945. The numbers present in units involved by the start of 22.6.41 is generally the most reliable thing you can get.
Quote:
Glantz said that there were 3800 Soviet tanks in the battle
Glantz simply took a number from his head.
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Isayev is biased because he's Russian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
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Old 21 Sep 17, 06:36
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Was Brody a tank battle or a battle between armoured forces?

It is not because armoured forces were fighting against each other that tanks would fight against each other .

ID had a lot of artillery, but that does not mean that when ID were fighting against each othern their artillery was fighting against each other .
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Old 21 Sep 17, 07:23
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David Glantz conducted a 1987 symposium on the initial battles of Barbarossa which included the 'Bloody Triangle'. He published the transcripts with his usual detailed and successive map coverage of the fights in his book, The Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front, 1993. The bloody triangle was greater than just Brody; it was Brody-Dubno-Lutsk.

A number of Soviet memoirs have covered their experiences in those battles to include the bloody triangle. For example, General D.I. Ryabyshev, who commanded the 8th Mech Corps, and Nikolai Popel, who was the corps commissar, cover the corps' fight around Brody. I used extensively their accounts in "Red Army Legacies: Essays on forces, Capabilities, & Personalities", Chapter 10 'Popel: The Fighting Commissar' (1995). Popel ends up leading a mobile group with the remainder of the 34th Tank Division: 217 tanks, most of them older BT-7 and T-26 light tanks, 25 KV and T-34's, and 9,000 men (according to article in Sov Mil Journal by Ryabyshev, 6-1978). The force makes into Dubno, and becomes surrounding. Popel and forces have to exfiltrate.

More recent publications, of course, have the advantage of better access to more archival material (which does have its gaps from unit journals captured by the Germans), and they are in the search for battles and operations beyond the traditional Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Belorussia.... Kamenir's The Bloody Triangle is a disappointment. Little use of archival material, misses Glantz's book, does not cite Ryabyshev's memoirs or the Sov article 6-78, and generally weak on available Soviet works such as Drig's below.

Yevgenii Drig in his Mekhanizirovannnye korpusa RKKA v boyu (2005) gives a good archival run down on the initial strengths of the mech corps before mechanical failures, air strikes, driving in the swamps drops the number of tanks.
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