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  #46  
Old 27 Sep 17, 05:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I would still like to hear why Montgomery kept wanting American Truck Companies and Supplies. In Market Garden he had two American Airborne Divisions and they were mostly resupplied by air drops. Why would he want Patton's 3rd Army stopped and where would the trucks and supplies end up? This does not make sense to me. Eisenhower gave Montgomery what he asked for to do Market Garden.
Monty wanted absolute supply priority for 2nd Army to enable VIII Corps and XII Corps to begin attacking simultaneously - or as close as possible - to XXX Corps.
As it was the flanking corps began their attacks on D+3/D+4 and in weaker strength than they would have liked.

Quote:
What Montgomery did not know was Patton had captured a significant amount of German fuel and supplies at this time. He also used captured German Artillery and shells in his own bombardments. Patton was not going to tell anyone either!
And what did he actually achieve, for that matter what did all of 12th Army Group achieve whilst Market Garden ongoing?

Nada.
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  #47  
Old 27 Sep 17, 09:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toomtabard View Post
Also, the role of te Poles tends to be ignored . I know that even after watching ''A BRIDGE TO FAR IN 1977 and reading Cornelius Ryan's book of identical title in the 1970's I was unaware hat the bulk of the Polish paras who took part in the Arnhem operation were based first in the small Scottish coastal town of Leven in Fife prior to being taken south to carrry out their part in 'MARKET GARDEN''.
I iscovered this quite accidentally when I saw a war memorial in a small park in Leven which, upon closer examination, revealed that it commemorated all thos Polish paras who had taken part in MARKET GARDEN' and lost their lives after being stationed at Leven until 1944.
Ironically, 'LEVEN' is I believe,, The Dutch word for 'life''
Good book about the Poles...



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  #48  
Old 27 Sep 17, 10:02
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Here is a link to the thread mentioned above concerning problems with British transport. It is a long thread but worth it as much primary source material is contained within.

Unserviceable Lorries - Jul - Sep 44
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  #49  
Old 27 Sep 17, 10:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
The one thing I could never understand is why after Market Garden had why wasn't Montgomery removed as a field commander?
Ike and the other top brass approved Mkt Garden so they have to share the rap too, especially as Ike openly admitted in his memoirs-
"There was still a considerable reserve in the middle of the enemy country and I knew that any pencil-like thrust into the heart of Germany such as he [Montgomery] proposed would meet nothing but certain destruction"
('The Struggle for Europe' by Chester Wilmot, p.490)
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  #50  
Old 27 Sep 17, 18:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Aber I have a book by a respected author saying that the British shipped 1400 three ton trucks to Normandy where they were found to have faulty pistons. On examination the replacement engines had the same faulty piston.
Yes, and I have the original source. The full paragraph is:

Quote:
Vehicle Maintenance

During this period of activity the maintenance of vehicles had to be reduced, but partly due to the majority of vehicles being new no serious ill effects ensued. A major fault occurred in the engines of K-5 4x4 Austins, 1400 of which, as well as all the replacement engines, were found to be defective and to have piston trouble.
The problem was one sub-type from one manufacturer and is basically a footnote for completeness in an official history but since appearing in Wilmott's Struggle for Europe has been often overstated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I would still like to hear why Montgomery kept wanting American Truck Companies and Supplies. In Market Garden he had two American Airborne Divisions and they were mostly resupplied by air drops. Why would he want Patton's 3rd Army stopped and where would the trucks and supplies end up?
Montgomery did not keep wanting US supplies. During Market Garden the Red Lion express involved 8 US truck companies for less than a month. Per Ruppenthal's Logistical Support of the Armies almost half the supplies carried were for the 2 US airborne divisions with the rest MT80.

The major argument about supplies was about the allocation of supplies within 12th Army Group - as Montgomery's Army Group controlled its own lines of communications. Bradley generally wanted to split supplies equally between 1st and 3rd US Armies. Montgomery believed it would be better to give priority to 1st US Army attacking through the Aachen Gap, the main route for the invasion of Germany identified before D-Day. Eisenhower supported this, but in early September Bradley still split supplies equally.

Patton's supplies were not going to Montgomery but to Hodges.
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  #51  
Old 27 Sep 17, 18:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Ike and the other top brass approved Mkt Garden so they have to share the rap too, especially as Ike openly admitted in his memoirs-
"There was still a considerable reserve in the middle of the enemy country and I knew that any pencil-like thrust into the heart of Germany such as he [Montgomery] proposed would meet nothing but certain destruction"
('The Struggle for Europe' by Chester Wilmot, p.490)
Wilmott spends the rest of that paragraph explaining that Montgomery had not suggested a 'pencil-like' thrust but one consisting of 20 divisions, and that SHAEF intelligence was certainly not reporting a 'considerable reserve' but rather that the Germans did not have enough divisions to man the West Wall.

Montgomery was not the only general to 'remember with advantage'.
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  #52  
Old 27 Sep 17, 18:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Monty wanted absolute supply priority for 2nd Army to enable VIII Corps and XII Corps to begin attacking simultaneously - or as close as possible - to XXX Corps.
As it was the flanking corps began their attacks on D+3/D+4 and in weaker strength than they would have liked.
IIRC absolute priority was part of the discussion of 'single thrust' vs 'broad front' before Market Garden.

Market Garden =/= single thrust

Quote:
And what did he actually achieve, for that matter what did all of 12th Army Group achieve whilst Market Garden ongoing?
Ruppenthal's selection of maps in Logistical Support of the Armies is instructive:

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  #53  
Old 29 Sep 17, 10:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
IIRC absolute priority was part of the discussion of 'single thrust' vs 'broad front' before Market Garden.

Market Garden =/= single thrust
This was a bit later.

A signal from Monty to Ike September 11th


“I have investigated my maintenance situation very carefully since our meeting yesterday. Your decision that the northern thrust towards the Ruhr is NOT repeat NOT to have priority over other operations will have certain repercussions which you should know. The large-scale operations by Second Army and the Airborne Corps northwards towards the Meuse and the Rhine cannot now take place before 23 Sep. at the earliest and possibly 26 Sep. This delay will give the enemy time to organise better defensive arrangements and we must expect heavier resistance and slower progress. As the winter draws on the weather may be expected to deteriorate and we then get less results from our great weight of air power. It is basically a matter of rail and road and air transport and unless this is concentrated to give impetus to the selected thrust then no one is going to get very far since we are all such a long way from our supply bases”

So Monty seems to have been prepared to wait for XII Corps and VIII Corps to be ready to advance before giving the OK to Market Garden.

In his memoirs he states that after that signal

"The message produced results that were almost electric. Bedell Smith came to see me next day to say that Eisenhower had decided to act as I recommended. The Saar thrust was to be stopped. Three American divisions were to be grounded and their transport used to supply extra maintenance to 21 Army Group. The bulk of the logistic support of 12 Army Group was to be given to First American Army on my right and I was to be allowed to deal direct with General Hodges (the G.O.C First American Army).
As a result of these promises I reviewed my plans with Dempsey and then fixed D-Day for the Arnhem operation (Market Garden) for Sunday 17th September.

I did not know until later (and perhaps it was as well that I didn’t) that when General Patton heard of these decisions he decided, with Bradley’s agreement, to get the Third American Army so involved beyond the Moselle that Supreme Headquarters would be able neither to reduce its maintenance nor to halt it."

So it seems MG only got the go-ahead for 17th September under the misapprehension that US transport would be making good 2nd Army's deficiencies.

On 16th September in a long message from Ike to Monty was this
"“… I hear that our frantic efforts to scratch together ad hoc truck companies to deliver you 500 tons a day did not get the supplies flowing on September 15, However I am assured the first batch will arrive there tomorrow morning September 17 …”
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  #54  
Old 29 Sep 17, 17:21
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On anything to do with logistics and Montgomery vs Eisenhower discussions you have to be very careful in specifying which periods you are talking about.

The promise of US transport did not speed up the deployment for Market Garden flanking Corps eg 3rd Division on 10th September sent all its available transport back to the beaches to stock up 40,000 gallons of petrol, before starting moving north on the 16th with "4 days supplies, 75 miles petrol and 250 rounds per each 25pdr"; the first brigade arrived on its start line on the 17th, before starting the assault at midnight on the 18th.

However the promise did reduce the seriousness of the supply situation, especially the need to supply the US airborne with US specific supplies (which took up half the capacity of the Red Lion express). In the background the British lines of communications were responding to the situation on the ground:
On 30 August (effective 6 September) the British decided to halve imports in Normandy in order to free up resources to lift supplies forward.
On 1 September 1700 reserve 3-tonners were released to sundry LoC units to improve transport capacity, and tank transporters were used to supplement the forward lift.
On 6 September No6 Roadhead was opened south-west of Brussels
On 7 September the first vessel arrived in Dieppe, moving the supply chain east of the Seine.

Although the British never had to ration ammunition, or had tanks running out of fuel, Market Garden "meant that a considerable back-log or ordnance stores and other items of equipment had to be made up if the formations were to have sufficient reserves to be restored to full fighting efficiency on its conclusion" - Admin History of 21st Army Group.
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  #55  
Old 29 Sep 17, 22:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
...


And what did he actually achieve, for that matter what did all of 12th Army Group achieve whilst Market Garden ongoing?

Nada.
Aachen battle. VII Corps, 1st US ID, 3rd US AD, 47/9 RCT.
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  #56  
Old 30 Sep 17, 10:20
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Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
Aachen battle. VII Corps, 1st US ID, 3rd US AD, 47/9 RCT.
See Siegfried Line Campaign History - penetration of less than 10 miles

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/...egfried-4.html
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  #57  
Old 30 Sep 17, 13:56
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
See Siegfried Line Campaign History - penetration of less than 10 miles

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/...egfried-4.html
10 miles is more than nada
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  #58  
Old 01 Oct 17, 20:44
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Thank you for he book reference Von Richter-I must now try toobtain and read this book.
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  #59  
Old 02 Oct 17, 11:58
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
On anything to do with logistics and Montgomery vs Eisenhower discussions you have to be very careful in specifying which periods you are talking about.
September 10th, when Monty and Ike met to September 16th.

Quote:
The promise of US transport did not speed up the deployment for Market Garden flanking Corps eg 3rd Division on 10th September sent all its available transport back to the beaches to stock up 40,000 gallons of petrol, before starting moving north on the 16th with "4 days supplies, 75 miles petrol and 250 rounds per each 25pdr"; the first brigade arrived on its start line on the 17th, before starting the assault at midnight on the 18th.
Bolo Whistler commanding 3rd Division recorded in his diary on 20th September "It was about a 250-mile move up to begin with and we were very short of equipment, ammo and also food."

In hindsight delaying Market Garden for a week, as Monty wanted, may have been the smart move.
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  #60  
Old 02 Oct 17, 12:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
Aachen battle. VII Corps, 1st US ID, 3rd US AD, 47/9 RCT.
Finally taken on 22nd October. Aachen could have been taken for virtually nothing in mid-September if Hodges had concentrated his forces.
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