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  #16  
Old 22 Sep 17, 12:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desiree Clary View Post
Sorta speaks for itself. The one thing I find amusing in all this is that, in the movie version of A Bridge Too Far, Monty is barely mentioned and all his faulty assumptions laid on subordinates.
For instance, a neat stitch-up job on 'Boy' Browning.
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  #17  
Old 22 Sep 17, 17:34
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The quality of the British paratrooper uniforms and gear from Arnhem period is so outstanding they could be used even today.
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  #18  
Old 22 Sep 17, 18:44
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The Allies should have focused their efforts on liberating Antwerp before trying to take Arnhem.
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  #19  
Old 22 Sep 17, 19:50
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Montgomery would never have been able to command so many US formations and been given so many supplies if he had went after Walcheran Island instead of Arnhem. Monty needed to get attention focused on the most important general before the Press started concentrating on some American or God Forbid, Slim in Burma. Eisenhower was still giving US 1st Army to 21st Army Group. Ike then took them away after Market Garden failed. He did allow the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions to fight with the British troops around Arnhem for a while.

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  #20  
Old 23 Sep 17, 03:22
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Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
The thing to remember is that it wasn't all of Monty's fault. There was plenty of blame to go around from Eisenhower down. The one thing I do know is that every year the Dutch military academy gave their graduates a test: How would you attack the Netherlands? If you said you'd attack down that single highway you automatically failed.
The highway in question is the one on 'the island' between Nijmegen and Arnhem; which is where 43rd Infantry Division took over from Guards Armoured.

In particular it is the highway where it is often claimed that Patton would have got through whereas Guards Armoured were sitting around making tea.
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Old 23 Sep 17, 03:26
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Eisenhower was still giving US 1st Army to 21st Army Group. Ike then took them away after Market Garden failed.
Eisenhower never gave US 1st Army to Montgomery, and so could not take it away after Arnhem. Eisenhower gave priority to US 1st Army for supplies over US 3rd Army, but that was to attack Aachen, not Arnhem.
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  #22  
Old 23 Sep 17, 03:26
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The Allies should have focused their efforts on liberating Antwerp before trying to take Arnhem.
Please explain why.
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  #23  
Old 23 Sep 17, 03:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jf42 View Post
Well, surely if they had graduated.... never mind.

The Dutch army didn't have a tank battalion let alone an armoured corps.
Good 'un that, wonder what they did have in 1940?


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  #24  
Old 23 Sep 17, 03:48
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Thumbs up

The bloke that painted this piccy has just passed away. He interviewed Veterans of the fight at the bridge to get it as authentic as possible. The soldier in the centre of the painting wearing a Red Beret instead of his helmet. He was a Vickers machine gunner, he'd removed his helmet because every time he fired the Vickers it fell down over his eyes. The helmet was lost when the building his Platoon was defending caught fire, nice touch that, innit?



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Last edited by Von Richter; 23 Sep 17 at 03:54..
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  #25  
Old 23 Sep 17, 05:24
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Originally Posted by Von Richter View Post


Good 'un that, wonder what they did have in 1940?


In case you're interested - very informative website about 1940 Netherlands campaign.
http://www.waroverholland.nl/

For example, this is why Westervoort was one of my points of interest when I had visited Arnhem during Market Garden Anniversary.
http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.p...=the-ysselline
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  #26  
Old 23 Sep 17, 06:07
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Thumbs up

Thanks dm, plenty to go at there, excellent stuff.

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  #27  
Old 23 Sep 17, 06:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Richter View Post


Good 'un that, wonder what they did have in 1940?


The Netherland's posture was entirely defensive. In 1940, they had a cavalry brigade with some armoured car squadrons.

Apart from the questionable logic of failing graduates of the Koninklijke Militaire Academie after they have passed out, obviously the appropriate question would have been not "How would you invade the Netherlands?" but "From what direction would an attack be most likely to come?"

Netherland's neutral stance obliged them to be seen to be preparing for attack from all directions, (even the North Sea coast). Of course, the main, the only, concern was an attack from Germany and the principal static defences did nevertheless face east, although the inner ring of inundations enclosed the main urban provinces on the south as well.

Any student or graduate positing an attack from the south would not only be showing his ignorance of the political situation but also of the nation's geography since to attack the Netherlands from the south would be attacking 'across the grain' of the country, requiring successive crossings of the 'great rivers,' the Maas, the Waal and the Nederrijn/Lek. That of course was precisely the problem faced by the allies in 1944, although, technically speaking, I suppose we might say they were 'liberating from the south.

True, there were also considerable water obstacles facing attackers from the east, along the IJssel and the upper Maas, with linked indundations- as well as the general patchwork of waterways crisscrossing the country that, in theory gave such overwhelming advantage to the defence, a fact on which the Netherlands had relied for 400 odd years.

The Germans were able avoid this problem by relying on airpower; bombing l.o.c and civilian centres while airborne troops by passed the static defences and seized airfields and other key points. This ensured the surrender of the Netherlands in a very short time.

As we know, in 1944, the allies took the airborne option as well. They advanced down the causeway linking Eindhoven, Nijmegen and Arnhem not because they thought it was the most advantageous line of approach but because they had no choice. The bridges were the key to the plan and the only route forward was a single road traversing low-lying land intersected with drains and canals. The key question was, "Given that this is our only line of approach, is this plan to seize the road to Germany by coup de main worth attempting?" Enough people thought it was.

The fact is they almost succeeded. They got within five miles of Arnhem. Debate will undoubtedly continue indefinitely as to whether they should have succeeded, or whether the speed with which the operation was mounted meant that the sum of error, miscalculation, and sheer bad luck, as well as the friction of war, meant that it was always going to be a bridge too far.

Fortune does not always favour the brave.

Last edited by jf42; 23 Sep 17 at 07:12..
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  #28  
Old 23 Sep 17, 10:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Richter View Post
The bloke that painted this piccy has just passed away. He interviewed Veterans of the fight at the bridge to get it as authentic as possible. The soldier in the centre of the painting wearing a Red Beret instead of his helmet. He was a Vickers machine gunner, he'd removed his helmet because every time he fired the Vickers it fell down over his eyes. The helmet was lost when the building his Platoon was defending caught fire, nice touch that, innit?



very informative thank you. It's amazing how lifelike some of these hand painted battle scenes look. lcm1 Was going to say that rules on type of head gear worn was very varied from unit to unit many wearing green or red continuously. I do not remember ever wearing anything but the RM navy blue, first in combined ops: then in RM Infantry. lcm1
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  #29  
Old 23 Sep 17, 10:06
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Sorry I wasn't clearer. They failed the test. Not that they failed and flunked out of school. I apologize for not making myself clear.
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Old 23 Sep 17, 10:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Eisenhower never gave US 1st Army to Montgomery, and so could not take it away after Arnhem. Eisenhower gave priority to US 1st Army for supplies over US 3rd Army, but that was to attack Aachen, not Arnhem.
Yet situation was not stellar either for Hodges who had to strip V Corps from its supply for allocation to VII Corps. IIRC some units even went to 'hijack' convoys made for others units.
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