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  #1  
Old 10 Sep 17, 13:56
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US looks to interdict NK ships

if you guys haven't heard yet, the US has put forth a proposal to conduct nonconsenual searches of NK merchant ships to the UNSC, to enforce embargoes of crude oil, petroleum, and natural gas, and they intend to do so by what ever means necessary.

i doubt china or russia will ok this, but lets entertain the idea they say yes, or abstain from the vote, or are simply absent from the vote, and the proposal is adopted.

1. seeing the damage merchant ships can cause to US ships, how likely is it that kim jong un would order NK mariners to ram ships attempting to stop them?
2. how likely would it be for kim jong un to issue small arms to ships crews and order them to resist boarders? or send small contingents of soldiers/marines on merchant ships?
3. would they expect the ship's onboard VBSS teams to handle these duties even though current regulations say they're only allowed to conduct compliant boardings? if not the VBSS teams would it be marines or SEALs? would those teams be temporarily stationed on the ships conducting these missions, or would the ship be held gun/missile point until a helo could fly a boarding team in?
4. what would be the best way to approach this? well away from NK shores to reduce the chance of KJU from sending his patrol craft to try to escort ships into territorial waters, but where finding ships would be harder? or nearer territorial waters where chance of conflict with NK navy might be higher, but it will be easier to meet and interdict ships?

the UNSC proposal from the US would have it as all UN member navies being able to do this so it would likely be a multinational force IF china and russia don't block it.

if china and/or russia blocks it how likely would it be for the US to just say 'screw it, we're doing it anyway'? and continue on our own, or turn to NATO to help even without the UN's blessing?
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  #2  
Old 10 Sep 17, 21:07
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I say the first time they balk and particularly if they fight back in the least we plant a ASM like a Harpoon into the ship. That'll teach 'em to be uppity!
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Old 10 Sep 17, 21:52
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I say the first time they balk and particularly if they fight back in the least we plant a ASM like a Harpoon into the ship. That'll teach 'em to be uppity!
most of our surface ships don't have harpoons or any sort of dedicated ASM...
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Old 11 Sep 17, 04:41
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There are instances of countries going to war over that sort of thing - in 1812 for example!
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Old 11 Sep 17, 05:05
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most of our surface ships don't have harpoons or any sort of dedicated ASM...
Must still have guns though, and I would guess that a shell is cheaper?
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Old 11 Sep 17, 08:55
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Must still have guns though, and I would guess that a shell is cheaper?
And if NK arm their merchantmen? If they haven't already
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Old 11 Sep 17, 14:39
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Must still have guns though, and I would guess that a shell is cheaper?
yes we still have guns, and the shells are cheaper, but a 5" shell even a harpoon won't likely stop a merchantman if they're under orders from kim to ram ships ordered to board them.

slow down to about 3-5kts sucker the ship, let it begin putting it's RHIBs in the water, and put the proverbial pedal to the metal while the naval vessel is in a vulnerable position.

you think those little bumps that we've seen recently were bad, i imagine a ship actively ramming a DDG or a CG would open up a much larger hole.

and arming the merchant men is an issue as well, whether arming them means just putting a crate of weapons on the ship for the crew to grab, or putting a small detachment of soldiers/marines (3-5) on the ships to resist the boarding.

do we really think that the USN would fire on a merchant ship with the intent to sink it, if their under trained VBSS team was met with violence and killed/repelled?
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Old 11 Sep 17, 17:40
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We do have an organization that is very good a boarding ships. They are called SEALS. I would hazard to guess that they are well trained, but at the present time probably overextended. So, if so train sailors to do the job, and I mean train.
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Old 11 Sep 17, 18:31
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We do have an organization that is very good a boarding ships. They are called SEALS. I would hazard to guess that they are well trained, but at the present time probably overextended. So, if so train sailors to do the job, and I mean train.
ya SEALs as well as teams in the marines do contested boardings, but the question is how will that work out?

will a squad or two of SEALs or marines be jammed into a DDG or CG that already has it's full deployment compliment on board? will they be staged on a CVN or amphib and helo'd into the situation?

and making this announcement now, there's not enough time to train more than one class of regular blue water sailors up to the task, to be able to get any meaningful work done.


side note, i have heard that the US has pulled the interdiction portion from the UNSC proposal.
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Old 11 Sep 17, 18:33
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also in regards to my statement about a 5" or harpoon not working to stop a merchant with a single shot.

i did forget we were talking about a merchant ship loaded with highly flammable and combustible stuff...however doesn't harpoon have a minimum range?
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Old 12 Sep 17, 08:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General_Jacke View Post
if you guys haven't heard yet, the US has put forth a proposal to conduct nonconsenual searches of NK merchant ships to the UNSC, to enforce embargoes of crude oil, petroleum, and natural gas, and they intend to do so by what ever means necessary.

i doubt china or russia will ok this, but lets entertain the idea they say yes, or abstain from the vote, or are simply absent from the vote, and the proposal is adopted.

1. seeing the damage merchant ships can cause to US ships, how likely is it that kim jong un would order NK mariners to ram ships attempting to stop them?
2. how likely would it be for kim jong un to issue small arms to ships crews and order them to resist boarders? or send small contingents of soldiers/marines on merchant ships?
3. would they expect the ship's onboard VBSS teams to handle these duties even though current regulations say they're only allowed to conduct compliant boardings? if not the VBSS teams would it be marines or SEALs? would those teams be temporarily stationed on the ships conducting these missions, or would the ship be held gun/missile point until a helo could fly a boarding team in?
4. what would be the best way to approach this? well away from NK shores to reduce the chance of KJU from sending his patrol craft to try to escort ships into territorial waters, but where finding ships would be harder? or nearer territorial waters where chance of conflict with NK navy might be higher, but it will be easier to meet and interdict ships?

the UNSC proposal from the US would have it as all UN member navies being able to do this so it would likely be a multinational force IF china and russia don't block it.

if china and/or russia blocks it how likely would it be for the US to just say 'screw it, we're doing it anyway'? and continue on our own, or turn to NATO to help even without the UN's blessing?
I do not see a positive outcome if this is implemented. The word for what is being contemplated is "blockade" which is considered an act of war, although the current euphemism/acronym is MIO (Maritime Interception Operations). MIO Operations are conducted currently off the coast of Yemen to intercept Iranian weapon smugglers that are trying to support the local Houti rebels.

However, in the case of Yemen most of the vessels used by the smugglers are wooden dows; needless there is a big difference between a dhow and even a small steel hulled merchant in the 8,000 range crewed by a sailors from a country that is populated by people that are well known for being crazier than bed bugs.

I could certainly see a NORK merchant ringing up 18 knots and heading straight for a DDG. Assuming the DDG pumps a dozen five inch 54 caliber rounds into said NORK merchant that will almost certainly ratchet up whatever is happening to a hot war that may or may not involve the PRC.

If something like that happens, IMO the odds are better than even that the PRC will go to bet for the NORKs; why? A couple of reasons:
1) The PRC does not want a united Korea that is in the American camp.
2) The attention grabbing shenanigans of fatso Kim Jong-un take our attention away from what Xi Jinping and his cronies are doing in the South China Sea for example.

The bottom line is that I can really see our current actions vis--vis North Korea blowing up in our faces.
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Old 12 Sep 17, 08:35
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Is there any evidence that the North Koreans have been receiving any of the supplies for their nuclear programme by sea anyway?
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Old 12 Sep 17, 08:42
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Is there any evidence that the North Koreans have been receiving any of the supplies for their nuclear programme by sea anyway?
Not that I know of. In any case, I would not be surprised to discover that the commissars in Beijing have been surreptitiously aiding the NORK nuclear weapon program simply because the current status quo suits them to a tee.
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Old 12 Sep 17, 10:04
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British experience in WW1 and WW2 of large scale stopping and inspecting ships of countries with which Britain was not at war suggests that this is best done by ships that are not warships. Ocean Boarding Vessels and Armed Boarding Vessels were requisitioned civilian ships and despite numerous references in otherwise reliable sources were not RN. They were Admiralty vessels in the same way that Fisheries Protection vessels of the time were not RN but Admiralty. The confusion probably arises because they were still named HMS, but not all of his majesty's ships were in the RN. They were armed and commanded by an RN officer but the crew, apart from the gunners were predominantly civilian, (usually the original crew with the original captain acting as first officer). This difference avoided many possible difficulties under international law when stopping a non belligerent vessel in international waters. If the ship had been RN rather than Admiralty this could have been interpreted as an illegal act of war. This was particularly important if the vessel stopped turned out to be American but any nation prepared to create an international legal case could have been a problem. From a purely practical point of view seas permitting it was easier to put a boarding party across two vessels of similar size. One wonders if the US would need to make a similar arrangement today

One issue of course is how does one identify an NK vessel? I'm sure that it would not be difficult for NK to get their ships registered under flags of convenience. There are currently 35 (often minuscule) countries offering such a service including NK (although they only have a small number of foreign ships flying their flag). The US would have to stop ships first in order to identify them.
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Old 12 Sep 17, 10:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
Not that I know of. In any case, I would not be surprised to discover that the commissars in Beijing have been surreptitiously aiding the NORK nuclear weapon program simply because the current status quo suits them to a tee.
Some parts recovered from NK missiles that splashed into the sea are of Chinese origin
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