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  #16  
Old 13 Sep 17, 11:32
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I find the photos of the site to be very moving. im glad the remains of the aircraft are left there as it makes his memory more "real" somehow....than a plain marker would
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  #17  
Old 13 Sep 17, 11:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
But the image given for propaganda purposes both for consumption by German audiences and for international distribution, was that it was nigh on invincible - re films such as Bombs on England, Fuertaufe (on the Polish campaign) and Stuka to name but a few amongst many that put out the message that here was an irresistible weapon. Hence my perfectly reasonable comment. Reality was a great deal different.
Other than the German 8 minute long film "Stuka", I have had little success in finding any video footage that you are referring to.

I sat through it even though I speak almost no German.

Only 2 minutes concentrated on the aircraft itself with absolutely no inferences to be drawn that it was to be regards as "invincible".

There was no sighting of any ground or air opposition that I was aware of.

Possibly ACG moderator "Skoblin" may be able to assist with some footage.

I will PM him to enquire.

(EDIT TO NOTE - I have sent a PM to "Skoblin" seeking material)

Quote:
See particularly Film Propaganda in Britain and Nazi Germany by Jo Cox.
"Film propaganda in Britain and Nazi Germany" by Jo Cox draws a complete blank.

I get plenty of references to the recently deceased politician by that name but little else.

I am somewhat familiar with the content of Bomben auf England but not enough to draw any specific inferences.

I would need to see some footage of it to make comment.

But, speaking of propaganda, are material such as songs like "Hang out the washing on the Siegfried Line" or British films such as the 1941 film "Target for Tonight" any more accurate of the early war situation than the material you referred to?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_for_Tonight

Was the BEF in a position to camp peacefully next to the S/F Line peacefully and wander up to it with a load of washing in 1939 or 1940?

Was Germany being bombed accurately as it was suggested in TFT?

Or was Bomber Commands actual performance more accurately relayed in the Butt Report of 1941?

Quote:
As Butt did not include those aircraft that did not bomb because of equipment failure, enemy action, weather, or that failed to find the target area, only about 5% of bombers setting out bombed within five miles of their target.[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butt_Report

Did the RAF destroy 175 Luftwaffe aircraft on September 15 1940, as suggested by the newspaper headline reproduced below?

Or was the Luftwaffe actually putting a large number of bombs on England in 1940?

I believe the last situation was the more accurate overall.

In any event, author Peter C Smith(who I referred to in a thread you started 18 months ago),

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ghlight=vultee

makes some pertinent and realistic appreciations of the early war utility and efficiency of the Stuka in his book

"Stuka Spearhead"

https://www.bookdepository.com/Stuka.../9781848327993

which I draw your attention to in the reproduced text below.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Stuka1.jpg (63.8 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg Stuka2.jpg (225.1 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Stuka3.jpg (147.4 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Stuka4.jpg (98.0 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Stuka5.jpg (100.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg telegraph-sep16_3440891b.jpg (141.9 KB, 2 views)
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Last edited by At ease; 14 Sep 17 at 09:18..
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  #18  
Old 13 Sep 17, 12:21
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The one thing I know about the Stuka was the Germans nearly lost a whole squadron right before the war when they dived through fog and into the ground. One of those nearly killed, IIRC, was Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen. Otherwise most fighters found the JU-87 to be easy pray.
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  #19  
Old 13 Sep 17, 12:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
The one thing I know about the Stuka was the Germans nearly lost a whole squadron right before the war when they dived through fog and into the ground. One of those nearly killed, IIRC, was Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen. Otherwise most fighters found the JU-87 to be easy pray.
And yet, the losses suffered by Stukas to all combat causes(including AA fire) from 1 September 1939 to the end of the campaign in France was a grand total of 151.

31 in Poland and 120 thereafter.

As I will point out once I have posted more material from Peter C. Smith's book that this figure of 151 total losses was an extremely low figure considering what was achieved.

He provides comment about Stuka losses in comparison to other contemporary bombing aircraft.

He makes some quite noteworthy points.

Unfortunately, it is far too late now for me to comment any further tonight.
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  #20  
Old 13 Sep 17, 13:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by At ease View Post
Other than the German 8 minute long film "Stuka", I have had little success in finding any video footage that you are referring to.

I sat through it even though I speak almost no German.

Only 2 minutes concentrated on the aircraft itself with absolutely no inferences to be drawn that it was to be regards as "invincible".

There was no sighting of any ground or air opposition that I was aware of.

Possibly ACG moderator "Skoblin" may be able to assist with some footage.

I will PM him to enquire.

(EDIT TO NOTE - I have sent a PM to "Skoblin" seeking material)
Hello, gents.

Short answer - you are both correct.
Long answer - it was fairly typical of German propaganda films, especially Wochenschau, to depict the Stuka as a sort of wunderwaffe, and without showing the attendant fighter escort - although this latter was (likely) partly the editorial result of focusing on the dive-bombing attacks (with sirens), explosions and trail of destruction rather than on the less interesting spectacle of a bunch of Messerschmitts milling about in the air providing cover.. However, everything I have read on the Eastern Front was that at least by late 1942 it was rare to have Stukas go out on a mission without some sort of fighter escort unless there was some certainty that there was no operational Soviet air forces nearby. I would presume this practice was in effect even earlier when engaged against British and French forces in 1940 - as long as air superiority seemed assured. So, for for propaganda purposes they may have been portrayed as some sort of invincible terror weapon, but I would presume the German military was much more cogent regarding their limitations.

PS. Unfortunately, I have removed all my military videos from Youtube, so can no longer provide any visual material.
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Last edited by Skoblin; 13 Sep 17 at 13:14..
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  #21  
Old 13 Sep 17, 13:09
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This thread is about a MS 406, Right?

Just saying...
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  #22  
Old 13 Sep 17, 13:11
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Quote:
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This thread is about a MS 406, Right?

Just saying...
Yes. Back to the MS 406, gents.
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  #23  
Old 13 Sep 17, 13:34
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MS 406 isn't sexy enough .
D 520 is another piece of cake ...
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  #24  
Old 14 Sep 17, 18:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebfrench76 View Post
MS 406 isn't sexy enough .
D 520 is another piece of cake ...
Suit one that came a little late to the party. One thing that delayed production was the shortage of suitable engines and in January 1939 a French purchasing mission to the USA was attempting (in vain) to get 500 Allison engines. Britain refused an order for 500 Merlins as they were needed for hurricanes and Spitfires. In desperation the purchase of Daimler Benz DB 601s was considered albeit briefly.
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Old 14 Sep 17, 22:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebfrench76 View Post
MS 406 isn't sexy enough .
D 520 is another piece of cake ...
With the possible exception of the Spitfire, not only were there no "sexy" fighters, they were all butt-ugly until the appearance of the FW-190.
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  #26  
Old 15 Sep 17, 00:28
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The Arsenal VG 33 was a serious contender to the Spit ,imo...

http://img13.deviantart.net/ddba/i/2...y_quentinr.jpg
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Old 15 Sep 17, 01:19
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The Arsenal VG 33 was a serious contender to the Spit ,imo...

http://img13.deviantart.net/ddba/i/2...y_quentinr.jpg
Nice. But she has a double chin and a belly.
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Old 15 Sep 17, 05:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebfrench76 View Post
The Arsenal VG 33 was a serious contender to the Spit ,imo...

http://img13.deviantart.net/ddba/i/2...y_quentinr.jpg
Looks like a Hurricane with anorexia.

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  #29  
Old 15 Sep 17, 09:34
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Quote:
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Looks like a Hurricane with anorexia.

Totally obvious , indeed.




Your disdain for everyhing french made , knows no limit

Last edited by RichardS; 15 Sep 17 at 10:11.. Reason: Please place large images under a spoiler-ACG staff.
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  #30  
Old 15 Sep 17, 10:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebfrench76 View Post
Totally obvious , indeed.




Your disdain for everyhing french made , knows no limit
Actually they are not dissimilar in general looks - don't get so precious
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