HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II

Notices and Announcements

World War II Discuss WW2. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10 Sep 17, 06:35
cbo's Avatar
cbo cbo is offline
Captain
Denmark
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: By
Posts: 737
cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Wreck of Morane-Saulnier 406

During the holidays this summer, we came across one of those sites which are - thanks to the Internet - not exactly a secret, but still something which is not in the average guide book.

Visiting the partly destroyed Abby at Longpont near Soissons north-east of Paris, by pure accident we stopped at the crash-site of a Morane-Saulnier 406, downed by ME109s in June 1940. Parts of the plane is still in situ and the Pilot - André Monty - is buried on site.

It is one of those places of memory that leaves a lasting impression, even among all the many historical sites in that area - at least for me.

André Monty was credited with shooting down four planes including a Heinkel HE-111 and two JU-87s on the day he died. It is not clear what the fourth plane was, but possibly a single ME-109 that he left his formation to finish off. He was apparently attacked by other ME-109s and shot down. At the time of his death, he was married and father of a 6 month old child.

http://www.petit-patrimoine.com/fich...?id_pp=02438_1

http://www.memorialgenweb.org/memori...php?id=3402171

NB: Pictures are fairly large.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg plane-longpont.jpg (435.6 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg motor_longpoint.jpg (405.5 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg Grav-andremonty.jpg (446.3 KB, 27 views)

Last edited by cbo; 10 Sep 17 at 09:38..
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 10 Sep 17, 09:54
Desiree Clary's Avatar
Desiree Clary Desiree Clary is offline
Major General
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Susan
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,987
Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600]
Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600]
RIP
__________________
Will no one tell me what she sings?--
Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
For old, unhappy, far-off things,
And battles long ago:
-William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10 Sep 17, 10:39
RichardS's Avatar
RichardS RichardS is offline
ACG Forums - Air Marshall
South_Vietnam
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Where wolf? THERE WOLF!
Posts: 16,984
RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+] RichardS has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
RIP André Monty. Thank you for your service and sacrifice for France.
__________________
Eagles may fly; but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines!

"I'm not expendable; I'm not stupid and I'm not going." - Kerr Avon, Blake's 7

Calling Nazis ratzis is an insult to rats around the world.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10 Sep 17, 14:36
sebfrench76's Avatar
sebfrench76 sebfrench76 is offline
General of the Forums
France
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rouen,Normandy
Posts: 7,405
sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
An icon here.Respect.Thanks for the post.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10 Sep 17, 16:26
Von Richter's Avatar
Von Richter Von Richter is offline
General of the Forums
England
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 10,476
Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Thumbs up

LEST WE FORGET

__________________
The long toll of the brave
Is not lost in darkness
Over the fruitful earth
And athwart the seas
Hath passed the light of noble deeds
Unquenchable forever.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10 Sep 17, 18:43
Capt AFB's Avatar
Capt AFB Capt AFB is offline
Lieutenant General
Canada
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Eastern Canada
Posts: 3,742
Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300] Capt AFB is on a distinguished road [300]
He got four enemy planes on the same day - It tells you something about the MS 406 in a fight flown in capable hands.

RIP Andre Monty. Your fight and efforts were not forgotten.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MS-406.jpg (30.9 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by Capt AFB; 10 Sep 17 at 18:57..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10 Sep 17, 19:45
Von Richter's Avatar
Von Richter Von Richter is offline
General of the Forums
England
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 10,476
Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Von Richter has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Thumbs up

Very pokey aeroplane, I love watching and listening, to the one flying at Duxford.


__________________
The long toll of the brave
Is not lost in darkness
Over the fruitful earth
And athwart the seas
Hath passed the light of noble deeds
Unquenchable forever.

Last edited by RichardS; 13 Sep 17 at 12:11..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10 Sep 17, 20:57
Salinator's Avatar
Salinator Salinator is offline
ACG Forums - Field Marshall
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Model Forum Group Build SPQR Campaign 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: no man's land
Posts: 17,884
Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Salinator has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebfrench76 View Post
An icon here.Respect.Thanks for the post.
For France:

http://francecrashes39-45.net/listes_presents.html
__________________
Prayers.


BoRG


http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11 Sep 17, 14:37
Half Pint John's Avatar
Half Pint John Half Pint John is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: John (NO LABELS)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Posts: 47,138
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]  [+1]
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
Great list. Is there a breakdown of the where when and how?
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

'half-baked, spurious nationalism'
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11 Sep 17, 15:02
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is online now
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 12,149
MarkV is simply cracking [600]
MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt AFB View Post
He got four enemy planes on the same day - It tells you something about the MS 406 in a fight flown in capable hands.
Although without in the slightest meaning to detract from the bravery of the French airmen on the day it does also tell a lot about the allegedly invincible Stuka.
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 11 Sep 17, 15:11
cbo's Avatar
cbo cbo is offline
Captain
Denmark
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: By
Posts: 737
cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100] cbo has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt AFB View Post
He got four enemy planes on the same day - It tells you something about the MS 406 in a fight flown in capable hands.
Just for accuracay - the HE-111 was in downed in May, but the rest was on the same day. I wasn't very clear on that. Not that it changes anything
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11 Sep 17, 21:33
jeffdoorgunnr's Avatar
jeffdoorgunnr jeffdoorgunnr is offline
General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: missouri
Posts: 5,032
jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600]
jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600] jeffdoorgunnr is simply cracking [600]
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12 Sep 17, 00:03
sebfrench76's Avatar
sebfrench76 sebfrench76 is offline
General of the Forums
France
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rouen,Normandy
Posts: 7,405
sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] sebfrench76 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
Some years ago,I had a phone call to this very site's administrator.At this time , I used to read all the AARs ,all the war diaries available on the net ,covering the months of June,July and August in Normandy.
With the help of a grid translator ,and Google earth , I located a P47 crash ,that wasn't in France crashes listing .The guy was excited and promised to make a search at the place of the crash.
Don't know if something sorted out..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 13 Sep 17, 08:36
At ease's Avatar
At ease At ease is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Real Name: John Giles
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South of Sydney
Posts: 5,676
At ease gives and gets respect [800] At ease gives and gets respect [800]
At ease gives and gets respect [800] At ease gives and gets respect [800] At ease gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
the bravery of the French airmen on the day
My salute to the French airmen of 1940.






Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV

it does also tell a lot about the allegedly invincible Stuka.
I'm not sure of what is being told.

Who is suggesting that the Stuka was "invincible"?

The attachments below demonstrate that it certainly was not considered to be invincible by the Germans.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...ader_1937_1941

by John Weal.

From image "StukaWeal1".

Quote:
A German war correspondent gave a graphic account of one such sortie flown on 7 June.

[.....]

A few small specks in the distance were our fighter escort.
If the aircraft was considered to be invincible, it would be a surprise if it was actually furnished with a fighter escort.

From image "StukaWeal2".

Quote:
13 June.....

They had just flown over the leading Panzers near Montmirail when:

.....something caught the Staffelkapitan's attention; small dots in the distance far ahead. He watched the gaggle of tiny specs swooping and diving among the clouds. Must be our fighter escort, he thought. "They're in a good mood today!" he said to his wireless-operator.

[.....]

Oddest thing of all, they are flying in Ketten of threes just like us...but our fighters usually operate in Schwarmen of fours? The light suddenly dawns: they're French.

[.....]

Now! 'Turn into them!" As one, his pilots - veterans all - bank towards the enemy fighters and open fire with their wing guns. It was a manoeuvre they had thoroughly practiced all winter long back in Cologne - practiced until they were heartily sick of it. But now it was paying dividends.'
It is abundantly clear from the above that the Luftwaffe was not living in a state of complacency or denial.

Not only did it provide fighter escorts, it actually implemented prudent defensive measures in addition to the carriage of a rear gunner.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg StukaWeal1.jpg (70.9 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg StukaWeal2.jpg (94.6 KB, 6 views)
__________________
"It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
"You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

"Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
— Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

Last edited by At ease; 13 Sep 17 at 09:14..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 13 Sep 17, 10:41
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is online now
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 12,149
MarkV is simply cracking [600]
MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600] MarkV is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by At ease View Post
My salute to the French airmen of 1940.








I'm not sure of what is being told.

Who is suggesting that the Stuka was "invincible"?

The attachments below demonstrate that it certainly was not considered to be invincible by the Germans.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...ader_1937_1941

by John Weal.

From image "StukaWeal1".



If the aircraft was considered to be invincible, it would be a surprise if it was actually furnished with a fighter escort.

From image "StukaWeal2".



It is abundantly clear from the above that the Luftwaffe was not living in a state of complacency or denial.

Not only did it provide fighter escorts, it actually implemented prudent defensive measures in addition to the carriage of a rear gunner.
But the image given for propaganda purposes both for consumption by German audiences and for international distribution, was that it was nigh on invincible - re films such as Bombs on England, Fuertaufe (on the Polish campaign) and Stuka to name but a few amongst many that put out the message that here was an irresistible weapon. Hence my perfectly reasonable comment. Reality was a great deal different.

See particularly Film Propaganda in Britain and Nazi Germany by Jo Cox.
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:06.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.