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  #16  
Old 08 Sep 17, 11:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
He was jailed not for his opinion but for inciting violence - only the very far right neo fascists seem unable to see the difference.
How is saying "let's kill Muslims" on Facebook incitement to violence?
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  #17  
Old 08 Sep 17, 11:36
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Well I can imagine how it would be,

no different from me standing up on a street corner shouting the same ..

Whether that needs to result in an effective imprisonment is a different matter.

The letter and the spirit of the law.
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  #18  
Old 08 Sep 17, 11:45
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  #19  
Old 08 Sep 17, 11:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Well I can imagine how it would be,

no different from me standing up on a street corner shouting the same ..

Whether that needs to result in an effective imprisonment is a different matter.

The letter and the spirit of the law.
In US practice, "incitement" must be accompanied by an extended effort of endeavoring to achieve a heightened emotional state in other people. How does a one-off post on Facebook qualify as incitement?
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  #20  
Old 08 Sep 17, 12:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
Don't be a prat! And don't allude to me being a Nazi.

If a bunch of Muslims can and have done on a regular basis, demonstrate by shouting or holding banners saying ''death to the infidels'' Death to all who insult Islam' which is what we who don't practice Islam are' and do every day, then surely some angry bloke posting 'Death to all muslims' is about as offensive. He gets 'banged up' the Lefty-Liberal establishment excuse the bunch of muslims for exactly the same thing. I'll say nothing of the lunacy of the media and 'government speak'.

Paul
To be honest I've only ever seen photoshopped pictures of these, or then such demonstrations in far away countries. Not to mention the fact that politicians are spineless cowards, who are just now probably starting to judge such speech after they managed to convict a white guy of it(otherwise they were probably afraid of the racism-card).

Mayhaps am wrong and you can provide evidence of moslems freely marauding the street chanting "death to infidels" on a daily basis in UK(and of course, them never facing jail or punishment for it)?
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  #21  
Old 08 Sep 17, 12:04
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Since the government cannot stop these attacks, it knows the pressure for revenge attacks will grow. One of the few things it can do is push the police to act with extreme dillegence to shut down any move to encourage revenge attacks. If these are placed in writing on searchable forums, so much the easier, including a nice evidence trail and easy arrest stat for the police force.

I sometimes think about abandoning current affairs discussion online for this reason. It is too easy to write something in anger and the law seems far more eager to shutdown people with my opinions rather than the open borders liberals who imperil us all with their vision of the future.
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  #22  
Old 08 Sep 17, 12:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
I sometimes think about abandoning current affairs discussion online for this reason. It is too easy to write something in anger and the law seems far more eager to shutdown people with my opinions rather than the open borders liberals who imperil us all with their vision of the future.
To be honest, I'd be a lot more worried if you'd get arrested for demanding open borders and not from calls for mass murder. But that's just my opinion that I hopefully wont get arrested for.
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  #23  
Old 08 Sep 17, 13:19
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"Lets kill all Muslims" is not an opinion.

It's a proposal, or incitement, or encouragement to a crime.

I'm not talking about legal definitions, I'm talking about every day understanding.
Could have been written in the heat of the moment.
I don't know the context, I don't know if the defendant admitted that it was a stupid mistake which he's is sorry about and "sorry judge it won't happen again".
Check a bit of British law on encouragement to a crime:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encour...law#Actus_reus

"I think we should kill all Muslims" would be an opinion.

I'd say that this opinion, if said by someone of considerable influence, could become encouragement to a crime.
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  #24  
Old 08 Sep 17, 14:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
"Lets kill all Muslims" is not an opinion.

It's a proposal, or incitement, or encouragement to a crime.

I'm not talking about legal definitions, I'm talking about every day understanding.
Could have been written in the heat of the moment.
I don't know the context, I don't know if the defendant admitted that it was a stupid mistake which he's is sorry about and "sorry judge it won't happen again".
Check a bit of British law on encouragement to a crime:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encour...law#Actus_reus

"I think we should kill all Muslims" would be an opinion.

I'd say that this opinion, if said by someone of considerable influence, could become encouragement to a crime.
If he said it to his buddies in a back room in hushed tones surrounded by a large quantity of weapons then it's conspiracy to commit a crime -- but that's a horse of a totally different color.

As it stands, however, it's only his opinion. The rationale: on a platform like Facebook, there is no link between poster and reader. Reader can be anybody. Assuming for a second that a given reader harbors anti-Muslim sentiments, then there still is no direct link between poster and reader. Let's also assume that our given reader possessed of anti-Muslim sentiments endeavored to contact the poster via private messenger in order to flesh out this notion of killing Muslims: as long as the poster does not entertain the reader's violent sentiments directly, then there's no incitement. If the poster responds "I was just talking sh*t," then there's no incitement. The poster has to respond in the affirmative -- that he's really interested in causing injury to Muslims -- in order for an incitement charge to stand.

You say that you're not seeking a legal definition, but this person has been arrested and now faces a criminal charge: a legal definition is most certainly in order. Without a firm definition in hand, incitement can very easily become "Muslims are lousy drivers," or "Muslims smell terrible." Almost universally we acknowledge that it would not be reasonable for citizens in civil societies such as ours to face possible legal sanction for merely uttering unpopular opinions. Employing amorphous definitions of legal terms, as was done in this case, is but one device to facilitate the breakdown of civil society and the establishment of what amounts to a police state. I feel that that is what's happened in this case.
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Old 08 Sep 17, 14:51
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Well you may want to read the wiki link I added, as my interpretation is that a British Judge could quite quickly arrive at a crime having been committed.
I am quoting part of it here, and assuming it to be correct. If not, correct me.

Quote:
Definition[edit]

Inchoate means "just begun" or "undeveloped", and is used in English criminal law to refer to situations where, although a substantial offence has not been committed, the defendant has taken steps to commit it, or encouraged others to do so.[1] As in all inchoate offences, the defendant "has not himself performed the actus reus but is sufficiently close to doing so, or persuading others to do so, for the law to find it appropriate to punish him".[2]

Actus reus[edit]

The offences of encouraging or assisting crime under the Serious Crime Act 2007 are inchoate offences.[3] In each case, the actus reus requirement is that the defendant carry out an act capable of "encouraging or assisting" the commission of another offence. An offence is committed under section 44, if this is done with intent to do the same; under section 45 if it is done "believing that the offence will be committed and that the act will encourage or assist its commission"; or under section 46 where there are multiple possible offences being encouraged or assisted, and at least one is foreseen.[4] In contrast to statutory crimes still reliant on incitement, there is no need for the defendant to have communicated his thoughts to anyone else. For example, the act is when a letter is posted; it is not reliant on it being received by the person being incited. Since this is very wide, the courts will have to narrow it by some criterion, probably by reference to the remoteness of the encouragement to the crime. Failing to act when under a duty to do so would also qualify.[5]
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  #26  
Old 08 Sep 17, 15:25
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^ Much of US law is based on English Common Law. Granted, English legal evolution didn't suddenly halt in 1776, but wild departures are relatively uncommon. "Inchoate" is the step before "conspiracy": we were thinking about committing a crime. Not just thinking, but -- realistically -- mentally masturbating; forgive me, but I know no other way to put it. Sitting with your mates over a few pints bantering, "we should get rid of the Muslims," with or without the saliva dribbling from your chin. It's a "thoughcrime" with your lips moving is all. Frankly it's straihgt out of The Twilight Zone, the episode where Dick York can read his coworkers' thoughts, and he learns that one of them is thinking about robbing a bank: the same thought he's had for decades. Come to think of it, haven't you boinked Helena Christiansen or Heidi Klum a thousand times? Doesn't that make you a serial rapist?

From your quote above:

Quote:
The offences of encouraging or assisting crime under the Serious Crime Act 2007 are inchoate offences.[3] In each case, the actus reus requirement is that the defendant carry out an act capable of "encouraging or assisting" the commission of another offence. An offence is committed under section 44, if this is done with intent to do the same; under section 45 if it is done "believing that the offence will be committed and that the act will encourage or assist its commission"; or under section 46 where there are multiple possible offences being encouraged or assisted, and at least one is foreseen.[4] In contrast to statutory crimes still reliant on incitement, there is no need for the defendant to have communicated his thoughts to anyone else. For example, the act is when a letter is posted; it is not reliant on it being received by the person being incited. Since this is very wide, the courts will have to narrow it by some criterion, probably by reference to the remoteness of the encouragement to the crime. Failing to act when under a duty to do so would also qualify.
- emphasis mine

By such wording I'm guessing that the act in question has not been challenged on appeal, though not being an English "barrister" (or is that a "solicitor" ) my opinion's value is very, very limited. Nevertheless, it should be clear that the act's authors were fishing: "In contrast to statutory crimes still reliant on incitement, there is no need for the defendant to have communicated his thoughts to anyone else. For example, the act is when a letter is posted; it is not reliant on it being received by the person being incited." Does that mean that I can shout "let's kill Muslims" alone in my basement, and if some bloke anywhere else in the country just happens to kill a Muslim after I shouted in my basement that I can be charged with incitement under this act? Hey Britons: has anyone challenged the constitutionality of that ridiculous clause yet? They should, 'cause I can't see it passing muster, not if the Law Lords are functionally literate.
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Old 08 Sep 17, 18:07
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Well, the "expressing an opinion" thing clearly either did not work, or wasn't even was brought up.
Will his lawyer appeal?

While I find the one year penalty highly amazing (how about a couple days of community service?), I can't agree on publicizing on facebook "Let's kill all muslims" merely being an opinion, equal to something said at a drinking table with a few friends. I could have agreed, had he said "I think we should kill all muslims"', because that would litterally have been an opinion.

I think the mods here would close and delete a thread immediately if one opened it with the title and content of "Let's kill all muslims", not just for bad taste but also for legal reasons. Would they?

I was able to find specific legal details on the verdict at a website called thelawpages.com, but you can read it just once, and then you have to register if you'd want to read it again.
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Old 08 Sep 17, 18:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
Well, the "expressing an opinion" thing clearly either did not work, or wasn't even was brought up.
Will his lawyer appeal?
There's always the other possibility: he's got a crap lawyer. Can't tell you how often I've seen that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
While I find the one year penalty highly amazing (how about a couple days of community service?)
Stands to reason: since the act bent logic in upon itself in order to classify "inchoate" crimes, then the sentences are going to be equally mind-boggling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
I can't agree on publicizing on facebook "Let's kill all muslims" merely being an opinion, equal to something said at a drinking table with a few friends.
But Facebook is no more impactful than standing on a street corner preaching about the end of the world. There are so many participants on Facebook and so many new posts that it easily becomes just so much background noise. Prosecuting this guy for posting on Facebook would be akin to prosecuting him for expressing the same opinion on Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park during the evening rush: it's all just so much noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
I could have agreed, had he said "I think we should kill all muslims"', because that would litterally have been an opinion.
Expressing a wish, a desire, a fantasy: all semantics. Did this guy ever endeavor to get his listeners/readers emotionally worked up -- or did he just punch "kill Muslims" into his keyboard and that was it? Was there at least an extended conversation on the topic? If not, then calling a lone Facebook post incitement is a genuine reach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
I think the mods here would close and delete a thread immediately if one opened it with the title and content of "Let's kill all muslims", not just for bad taste but also for legal reasons. Would they?
These forums are private property, and therefore their owners can disseminate and/or censor whatever expressions they like. The First Amendment's protections of speech extend only to government bodies, not private parties, as in the case of this forum's owners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
I was able to find specific legal details on the verdict at a website called thelawpages.com, but you can read it just once, and then you have to register if you'd want to read it again.
Try it. I may be able to at least get that first glance.
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Old 10 Sep 17, 12:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
It amazes me that this is what our laws can now do. I've seen people get less for physical violence towards others. There have been marches by Muslims shouting death to all disbelievers etc....

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews...aLO?li=BBoPWjQ

I'll say no more in case I get raided, summoned to court and put away too.
A man who wrote "let's kill every Muslim"

The man who wrote "let's kill every Muslim" might have some mental issues and could be better off in a treatment center. Now yes many Muslims are just as white as you and I, those white Muslims face the same hypocrisy from those whom criticize white people but do not for example criticize Blm members whom call for attacks on white people. As for the laws of the UK, if what you report is accurate then the issue is wrt a part of the LE being incompetent, Muslims in UK like any group, unless we believe in conspiracy theories...dont control the law system in the UK.

Mate you trying to ramp up division here? I submit that perhaps your image of a Muslim is of a marauding beast, a big bearded ugly Muslim Pakistani or Arab man about to ravage a white English Christian woman. I assure you that this image that Muslims are dirty scoundrels is created by the same people whom would throw your English ancestors legacy to the wolves.

The msn link does not mention Muslims as you do, but I understand from your previous posts and this post above that it seems you dont like Muslims, is that fair to say? I must ask what do you say of the fine dressed Muslim man and women whom go out to the bars, associate with Christians, have common ancestors as we do at least wrt those Muslims from Syria and other Arab areas previously held by the Roman Empire. Those marches of Muslims you speak of are marches that are propped up by those whom totally ignore the beautiful Arab Muslim Syrian lady whom perhaps is married to a European white Christian man.
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Old 10 Sep 17, 14:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
The Sabbath
1Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, "These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do: 2"For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3"You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day."
Julius Streicher would agree with this post .

Are Jews/non Jews killed today for not observing the sabbath ? NO

Are Muslims /non Muslims killed today for not observing the rules of the Qoran ? Yes .

That's the difference .
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