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  #16  
Old 05 Sep 17, 04:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
...the cultural nature...
This is where the disagreement likely sticks. "Cultural" is one of the sneakiest concepts floated as an explanation of anything. (The Germans foisted that one on us all you know.) Can mean anything, thus nothing... What those explanations tend to share is an implicit assumption that culture is what explains unthinking, irrational behavior. (THEY have culture, WE are just being rational.)

Since radical Islamism is an ideology driven political movement, these people clearly THINK, and quite a lot, about what they do and why. It might be based on some warped underlying presumptions, but it's by no means irrational, which is part of what makes them dangerous, and not just in truck-crashing, bonb-exploding sense, but as an ideology.

Meaning "culture" is a rather unhelpful concept when confronting what they're up to and what we should do about it.

This all goes to the concept of "framing". The OP is one attempt at a kind of framing as well. It's what political adversaries try to impose on one another — to make the other side accept your frame, your concepts. Which is why, if you don't accept and agree about the frame, one should under no circumstances accept the frame of an ideological, political adversary. (If you want a framing that is inclusive, that can be bi-partisan support, then that's another kind of thing.)

The situation here is that this is a three way battle, and this OP mostly seems to be about the US Cons-Lib divide, not about ideologically driven Islamist attacking western societies. THAT is literally so unimportant at this point, US conservatives have the leisure to hound liberals over it for bogus reasons, since the Islamists are just not relevant enough to force ANY of us together. We don't have to present a united front or anything since they're just that unsuccessful. Our societies ARE NOT at some existential impasse over Islamist terrorism — the terrorists would dearly LOVE to have that effect, it IS what they want, but they're just a nuisance to us. Our internal squabbling like this is proof of their relative irrelevance. Self-preservation and self-interest would otherwise indicate that we would recognize a common enemy posing an existential threat to us. But they don't, not like this. (But here is where conservative fantasies about Eurabia, and European suicide get trotted out, i.e charges of denialism — which again is as much proof that the conflict isn't actually viscerally real, but rather contrived, as anything else.)

We're just not bothered enough, not compared to our interest in exploring the division US Cons-Libs nor the US-Europe one (or anyone else). It's about US, our societies, and the Islamist terrorists are just grist to these other mills here. IF they start to pose an actual challenge, that might change. But so far they're not even close, nasty but not within a mile of achieving the kind of impact they would like.

Which is why I for instance don't see British society teetering on some kind of edge, about to lapse into some kind of different mode, as an effect of the terrorist attacks of late. It absorbed them, and got on with things, as it should. It's far too resilient to have to do things differently. Whether accepted in the UK or not, the same applies for the other Western European societies recently attacked. We will notice if that changes at some later point.

Last edited by Johan Banér; 05 Sep 17 at 04:47..
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  #17  
Old 05 Sep 17, 06:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
I vote for the Brit anti-immigration UKIP party, so remember everybody, we can use our votes to get rid of politicians who we don't like, just as the great American people trashed Hillary..
If we vote for fools, we only have ourselves to blame for the ensuing mess..
"Which is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who follows him?"- Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The UK does not have an overtly anti-Islam political party, in the way that France, Holland and Germany do. This means there is no democratic lever in the UK for those who feel strongly about this issue. UKIP has a leadership candidate who is running on an anti-Islam ticket but she is not the favourite to win.
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  #18  
Old 05 Sep 17, 06:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
This is where the disagreement likely sticks. "Cultural" is one of the sneakiest concepts floated as an explanation of anything. (The Germans foisted that one on us all you know.) Can mean anything, thus nothing... What those explanations tend to share is an implicit assumption that culture is what explains unthinking, irrational behavior. (THEY have culture, WE are just being rational.)

Since radical Islamism is an ideology driven political movement, these people clearly THINK, and quite a lot, about what they do and why. It might be based on some warped underlying presumptions, but it's by no means irrational, which is part of what makes them dangerous, and not just in truck-crashing, bonb-exploding sense, but as an ideology.

Meaning "culture" is a rather unhelpful concept when confronting what they're up to and what we should do about it.

This all goes to the concept of "framing". The OP is one attempt at a kind of framing as well. It's what political adversaries try to impose on one another — to make the other side accept your frame, your concepts. Which is why, if you don't accept and agree about the frame, one should under no circumstances accept the frame of an ideological, political adversary. (If you want a framing that is inclusive, that can be bi-partisan support, then that's another kind of thing.)

The situation here is that this is a three way battle, and this OP mostly seems to be about the US Cons-Lib divide, not about ideologically driven Islamist attacking western societies. THAT is literally so unimportant at this point, US conservatives have the leisure to hound liberals over it for bogus reasons, since the Islamists are just not relevant enough to force ANY of us together. We don't have to present a united front or anything since they're just that unsuccessful. Our societies ARE NOT at some existential impasse over Islamist terrorism — the terrorists would dearly LOVE to have that effect, it IS what they want, but they're just a nuisance to us. Our internal squabbling like this is proof of their relative irrelevance. Self-preservation and self-interest would otherwise indicate that we would recognize a common enemy posing an existential threat to us. But they don't, not like this. (But here is where conservative fantasies about Eurabia, and European suicide get trotted out, i.e charges of denialism — which again is as much proof that the conflict isn't actually viscerally real, but rather contrived, as anything else.)

We're just not bothered enough, not compared to our interest in exploring the division US Cons-Libs nor the US-Europe one (or anyone else). It's about US, our societies, and the Islamist terrorists are just grist to these other mills here. IF they start to pose an actual challenge, that might change. But so far they're not even close, nasty but not within a mile of achieving the kind of impact they would like.

Which is why I for instance don't see British society teetering on some kind of edge, about to lapse into some kind of different mode, as an effect of the terrorist attacks of late. It absorbed them, and got on with things, as it should. It's far too resilient to have to do things differently. Whether accepted in the UK or not, the same applies for the other Western European societies recently attacked. We will notice if that changes at some later point.
I agree I 'framed it' in the sense I created a list of 6 things that I think are important indicators. Of course someone else with different opinions would create different key points.

Relax, it's just for interest. Hardly anyone reads ACG Europe board and it is not going to change the world. It's just my own measure of how society is or isn't changing. So far you should by happy as all the indications are that the majority agree with your world view and mine is a minority view.
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  #19  
Old 06 Sep 17, 00:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
Oh, the private terms here are all in the eye of the beholder, i.e. yours.

But I think your post here is quite revelatory. (Though it makes on wonder why you would frame such an elaborate OP, if the whole thing was going to head to beaten-wife-metaphors being applied to Europeans anyway?)
Speaking of elaborate, this thing is just going to go on and on, isn't it?
If you are hoping to influence fellow Europeans to continue to tow the socialist line.

Be advised, it is well known that there are only two sources of anti-Americanism in the world today; the Left, and the Islamic Jihad. Speaking of a marriage made in Hell, I think that who's the bitch is that relationship is beyond question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
Israel works like I described. Hell, they even consciously PLAN for it, by having clean-up crews descend on all sites of terrorist attacks, precisely to make sure as little as possible can be seen as soon as possible. And it's perfectly consciously done, so as to make sure normalcy can be regained asap. That is cosmetics, clearly being conscious about the look of the thing. (Thing is, it works.)

Forgetting about the retaliation part of that already?

But going by your metaphorics here, that amounts to Israel, the beaten wife, slapping on an extra layer of make-up, and refusing to acknowledge what just happened.

By bombing Gaza?

Except I suspect you wouldn't apply this imagery to Israel, right? And you wouldn't about the US either? Which means it is specifically about Europeans.

OK, running with that,
Running with a totally false narrative is a specialty of the far-Left, so why not?

You are are getting a tremendous amount of mileage out of two sentances, I'd say this has been building up for a long time now. It wasn't just me, now was it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
so the problem with Europeans is that we are effeminate, passive, and have brought these terror attacks on ourselves somehow, since we're just to chickenpoo to leave our abusive husband (the dick-swinging Islamist terrorists), and in denial. Wholly contemptible.
It would be, if what you are saying is true.

What I am saying is that people like you hate the Right so much that you are more comfortable sharing your precious personal space with a Muslim that holds you, your culture and your right to live in contempt, that you would be with a fellow European that is identical to you in all ways but one; he or she might be a Right-Winger.

I also don't think that you care about anyone being killed by Terrorists, not enough to ever admit that you were wrong about letting them in, in the first place.
In fact, I have never heard a Leftist admit that they were wrong, about anything, ever. It does not appear to be possible, not when Politics are at stake... your leaders prove that every time one of these attacks happens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
Considering this is stock, conservative US anti-europeanism, with no actual relevance to the recent spate of terrorism, it's hard to so why we should pay attention to it? It's not even arguably wrong in some interesting way, it's just so out of left-field irrelevant there's nothing to discuss.

And we're back to the fact that despite the Daesh terror (a sign of desperation on their part), and that the terrorism is supposed to try to force our societies to overreact in some way, and it's failing — this to you is still A Bad Thing (thanks for confirming that suspicion btw).

Which is why I tend to conclude that if forced to pick a side between the Islamist terrorist and the European societies they attack, to try to force them into making mistakes, you might actually favour the terrorists?

Because you are deeply afraid, and close to panic. Your edifice of B.S. is coming closer and closer to crashing down around your ears.
Speaking of desperation, you just accused an Iraq veteran of favoring the Terrorists... and you did it because you know I have accused the Leftist establishment of the EU of the same thing.
AND the reason I have is because you show such venomous hatred of anyone on the Right, except for the ultra-Reactionary Muslims that are killing you and use your "decadence" to justify their Hatred of all things Western.
They smile in your face, and you believe them because your Political creed demands it.
In all earnest; is it really worth it?


They might be brutal and beastly, but those make for pretty good characteristics of masculinity. Instead you seem to reserve as special disgust for the odious, effeminate, womanlike Europeans they're attacking. And when the Europeans don't go all to pieces, just absorb the attacks (we have 150 years of collective experience of this sort of thing) that is the Wrong Response. While if something similar happens in places it seems reasonable to infer you approve of, the US, Israel, odds are you would instead consider it wholly appropriate I imagine? (Yes, it looks to me as if you're applying a double standard here.)

It even used to be a US line about it being morally superior to Europe, for us having the phenomenon of terrorism while the US didn't; it's more of the this US anti-Europeanism, except things seem to have have shifted a bit in recent years as terrorism of this kind appeared in the US too.

Regardless, since the European societies being struck by these Islamist terrorist attacks so far just absorb them — actually they have acted a bit surprised about their own phlegmatic response, displaying "la courage anglaise" as the French would put it (i.e. cold-bloodedness); i.e. there was in Europe initially, when the first attacks occurred, considerably more fear that our societies might prove brittle after all, except they haven't — which indicates they are not even close to any kind of breaking point.

So I feel you are going to have to go on being frustrated about the European response (or lack of) to these terrorist attacks. Since we can assume there will be more of them, likely soon.
Frustrated? I fell fully vindicated, the insanity that infests the Establishment can never ben cured from within because your pride is on the line.

"Effeminate"? No, I very much agree that your side is as Cold Blooded as they come. You hope to bring about a regime that will make Orwell's 1984 look like an optimist's Guide to better living, and the Jihad is your CatsPaw. You think you will be able to discard the Islamo-Fascists like a used tampon when the time comes.
Oh boy, are YOU in for a shock!

No, I don't mean all Europeans. The people you hate the most, your own countrymen with different ideals, are perfectly fine with me. I admire their ability to hold to their beliefs in the face of all the underhanded peer=pressure, repetitive shaming and other sorts of Propaganda that your side fires at them all day long, every day of their lives.

And what would YOUR opinion if this woman be, eh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEedv_ZKApk




And speaking of those defiant Poles;
Anti-Jihadist Training Camp: VICE Reports ... a French entrepreneur offers military and survival training in what he calls “anti-jihadist training” in Poland. Video, 16m 36s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZULmqCOXci8



Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
The UK does not have an overtly anti-Islam political party, in the way that France, Holland and Germany do. This means there is no democratic lever in the UK for those who feel strongly about this issue. UKIP has a leadership candidate who is running on an anti-Islam ticket but she is not the favourite to win.
Well, speaking of that;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnI2Dzp7VEM


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  #20  
Old 06 Sep 17, 05:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
The failed attacks are quickly shrugged off for some reason. It is those that hit that register with the public, the ones where parents have to live the rest of their life without their child, or children who's parents never come home.
Wel idk, like I said at the time of the Brussels attack, had they managed another one like that within the next week or month or so, they might have made a dent, now with the effect of the last successful one largely worn off and a couple new attempts dealt with efficiently, public opinion has adapted to the new threat level.

There seems to be a law of diminishing effect even to terrorism.

Perhaps we could play up the foiled attempts a bit more, and deliberately mediatize them, but I doubt that's even necessary.

This IS going to be long term slug, and inevitably there WILL be another "successful" one - since the terrorists keep lowering the bar, I fully expect a random Muslim psychotic to wander into a kindergarten with an axe or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
The UK does not have an overtly anti-Islam political party, in the way that France, Holland and Germany do. This means there is no democratic lever in the UK for those who feel strongly about this issue. UKIP has a leadership candidate who is running on an anti-Islam ticket but she is not the favourite to win.
I think that makes a difference yes, the anti-Muslim migration issue over there seems to have been channelled into the anti EU movement rather effectively and it will soon become clear EU membership has very little effect on the number of Muslims in Britain.

I have often wondered how many of the Brexit votes were in fact "get rid of the Muslims" votes.

Here the Muslim issue was put on the political agenda in the early nineties already by VB, and has now been largely incorporated (the desirable parts of it anyway) by the ruling NVA, who in doing so absorbed much of their electorate and became the largest Flemish party.
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  #21  
Old 17 Sep 17, 06:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
So far the response to the jihadi terror campaign in Europe has shown up a consistent set of responses. These can form a useful focus for whether attitudes are changing significantly in the aftermath of the next attack and the others that seem inevitable to follow. ACG opinion always polarise rapidly on this subject so there is not a lot of value in arguing what should happen as few people want to change their position. The more important feature is whether big shifts in public opinion or the actions of politicians can be detected.

1) The focus is on superficial or tactical features such what the security services could have done better. Politicians and the media have no interest in exploring the root causes, such as the size of the Muslim population or the attitudes they hold.

2) Statements by politicians are essentially rhetoric, focused on 'values' and no practical solutions are proposed.

3) Social liberals lead the public response. The focus is on 'unity' vigils and lighting up of public buildings but then almost a carnival atmosphere of positivity about how strong multiculturalism is. This is the 'good' and 'correct' response as viewed by the media and politicians.

4) Any protest movement is given much less or no media publicity. If it is covered at all, it is a rally of alt-right Nazi's. Any protest movement is 'bad' and the 'wrong' response by the forces of evil that 'seek to divide us'.

5) The police begin an immediate focus on 'hate crime', saying or writing anything considered too negative about the Muslim community. The media are on high alert and report events down to things said in the school playground. The focus is on how terrible things are for the Muslim community rather than how exposed the rest of the population is to further attacks.

6) the Muslim community themselves offer limited or no protest against the attack, in stark contrast to the mobilisation seen over attacks on Muslims in Gaza etc. The main message is that the community is a victim of Islamophobia and holds no responsibility for the attack.

These are the common features so far and can be used to check if society is shifting or sticking with the same cultural response to jihadi attacks.
Parsons Green bombing is shaping up as a textbook case. Cut and paste statements from the Prime Minster and Mayor of London. Home Sec interviewed on TV today and very much focused on tactical matters, not fundamental causes. The public, if anything, has not really been mobilised by this attack at all, suggesting we are lowering the bar in what constitutes 'normal'.

The BBC interviewer chided the Home Sec for wrongly deporting an Afghan migrant in the above interview and that was his main drive on the question of immigration and asylum.
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Old 01 Oct 17, 16:32
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A jihadi has killed two young women with a blade today, before being shot by the security services. Events like this barely register now and are somewhat common place. The media and public do not react that strongly to them. The French PM has issued a strongly worded statement, as is par for the course.

France is already under a State of Emergency, due to expire in November.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461107
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Old 01 Oct 17, 17:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
A jihadi has killed two young women with a blade today, before being shot by the security services. Events like this barely register now and are somewhat common place. The media and public do not react that strongly to them. The French PM has issued a strongly worded statement, as is par for the course.
Macron might as well just say terrorism is part and parcel of living in France..
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Old 12 Oct 17, 16:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
So far the response to the jihadi terror campaign in Europe has shown up a consistent set of responses. These can form a useful focus for whether attitudes are changing significantly in the aftermath of the next attack and the others that seem inevitable to follow. ACG opinion always polarise rapidly on this subject so there is not a lot of value in arguing what should happen as few people want to change their position. The more important feature is whether big shifts in public opinion or the actions of politicians can be detected.

1) The focus is on superficial or tactical features such what the security services could have done better. Politicians and the media have no interest in exploring the root causes, such as the size of the Muslim population or the attitudes they hold.

2) Statements by politicians are essentially rhetoric, focused on 'values' and no practical solutions are proposed.

3) Social liberals lead the public response. The focus is on 'unity' vigils and lighting up of public buildings but then almost a carnival atmosphere of positivity about how strong multiculturalism is. This is the 'good' and 'correct' response as viewed by the media and politicians.

4) Any protest movement is given much less or no media publicity. If it is covered at all, it is a rally of alt-right Nazi's. Any protest movement is 'bad' and the 'wrong' response by the forces of evil that 'seek to divide us'.

5) The police begin an immediate focus on 'hate crime', saying or writing anything considered too negative about the Muslim community. The media are on high alert and report events down to things said in the school playground. The focus is on how terrible things are for the Muslim community rather than how exposed the rest of the population is to further attacks.

6) the Muslim community themselves offer limited or no protest against the attack, in stark contrast to the mobilisation seen over attacks on Muslims in Gaza etc. The main message is that the community is a victim of Islamophobia and holds no responsibility for the attack.

These are the common features so far and can be used to check if society is shifting or sticking with the same cultural response to jihadi attacks.
Interesting development in relation to (4). A movement called the Football Lads Alliance has sprung up in response to the recent UK attacks. They are a protest movement against jihadi attacks but with a stated non-violent ethic. They got 10,000 to attend a march but most of the media blanked it, or framed it as racist.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/1...-to-ignore-it/
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