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Latin America & the Caribbean Including issues of Central and South America and Mexico.

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  #1  
Old 13 Apr 13, 05:08
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JFK Assasination

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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
I take it when you mention Nixon you mean LBJ? Nixon wasn't VeeP at the time of Mongoose.

Personally I think Oswald acted alone. However, as you point out, there were so many black ops going on, anything's possible. I just think if professional were going to hit JFK they wouldn't have used a bolt-action rifle firing at a steep angle (or multiple angles, etc). Nor would they have run the risk of hitting Jackie.

But that's just me.
No I meant Nixon. Operation Mongoose was the umbrella name of later operations under JFK to kill Castro. It was however the offspring of previous operations to remove Castro including the Bay of Pigs that were instigated before the election of 1960 under the supervision of Nixon (bay of Pigs ultimately being inherited by JFK) who had taken on more responsibility in the closing year/months of Eisenhowers administration. These operations included the involvement of the Mafia. This was an involvement that all parties had wanted to remain under the carpet. There is research to suggest that Nixon whilst as VP most definitley knew of this with documents to prove it, with the research suggesting this is what the Watergate burglaries were really about....

As to the assassination. We can only speculate what really happened, however if such things interest you one of the key things to look at when it comes to this man Lee Oswald is to look at the consensus of him being a lone nut recluse with no connections to anyone of note. Look in to that mate and that is where it gets interesting , whatever conclusion you make from it....
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  #2  
Old 13 Apr 13, 06:26
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
No I meant Nixon. Operation Mongoose was the umbrella name of later operations under JFK to kill Castro. It was however the offspring of previous operations to remove Castro including the Bay of Pigs that were instigated before the election of 1960 under the supervision of Nixon (bay of Pigs ultimately being inherited by JFK) who had taken on more responsibility in the closing year/months of Eisenhowers administration. These operations included the involvement of the Mafia. This was an involvement that all parties had wanted to remain under the carpet. There is research to suggest that Nixon whilst as VP most definitley knew of this with documents to prove it, with the research suggesting this is what the Watergate burglaries were really about....

As to the assassination. We can only speculate what really happened, however if such things interest you one of the key things to look at when it comes to this man Lee Oswald is to look at the consensus of him being a lone nut recluse with no connections to anyone of note. Look in to that mate and that is where it gets interesting , whatever conclusion you make from it....
I was wondering because of the proximity of Nixon and JFK.

I really can't see Watergate having anything to do with Mongoose-the documents targeted were clearly identified as the business unfolded.

There's such a volume of material on Oswald you can find anything you want to support whatever you want. That's the whole problem with the JFK business: there are so many claims, legends, and allegations surrounding it, its extremely hard to tell what is fact and what is fiction.

But I keep going back to the facts which are known: the shooter was positioned with a second-rate bolt-action rifle firing at a steep angle, using FMJ ammunition. Not a smart move. If you are going to have multiple shooters, as the conspiracy goes, they have to be on similar heights and using identical weapons.

Then and now you can walk into any gun store in Dallas-Fort Worth and purchase a quality high-powered hunting rifle and a top of the line scope, and all the hollow-point ammunition you desire, no questions asked. If you have even a modest knowledge of criminals,, then & now, you can easily acquire an fully automatic weapon.

Again, just my opinion. I have a low belief rating for conspiracies because it is so difficult to keep secrets when a group of any size is involved, and every conspiracy involving JFK inevitably is huge.
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Old 13 Apr 13, 10:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
I was wondering because of the proximity of Nixon and JFK.
Actually I don't think its ever been truly established what the burglars were looking for. Happy to learn though. What seems to have bothered Nixon the most was that E Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis were involved with the plumbers, along with some Cubans as it happens. Two men particularly Hunt who was part of the early( and later JFK) anti Castro ops when he was V.P. Its posssibly why on the tapes you can here him wanting the CIA to put a lid on it. And that pick that scab you'll find a lot of puss comment. Its off topic though, well kind of. Happy to discuss it in PM or another thread though mate.




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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Again, just my opinion. I have a low belief rating for conspiracies because it is so difficult to keep secrets when a group of any size is involved, and every conspiracy involving JFK inevitably is huge.
That's fine and I freely admit to having such thoughts myself in years gone by. I'm not going try and convince of you of anything as this is one of those things that you look in to yourself and analyse or you dont. Basically as it so complex. The problem is there is a lot of (LBJ did it) kooks (maybe that includes Oliver Stone too) and they tend to muddy the waters of genuine research and people dont want to be accused of being Kooks so avoid the issue.
I find it interesting, so I've had a read and a think.
There is certain information we do know that makes for very interesting reading. The first thing I would say is dont get too hooked on rifles etc not that its not important but it is actually the least interesting , well in my opinion anyway. It is exceedingly likely that LHO was a low level operative for US intelligence, possibly CIA, most likey the ONI. He is painted as a socially inept recluse with little redeeming talents who just wanted the world to notice him. Yet this is a man who worked on Guam as part of a Top Secret radar system connected to the U2 yet supposedly an openly Communist man working in the USMC in the 50's. That wouldnt happen now , never mind then. A man who is taught Russian to a very high level at the height of the Cold War, who ends up in Russia as a "defector" having told the US embassy there he wishes to renounce his citizenship and assist the Russians with his USMC knowledge (during a time period when we know the CIA were running false defector programmes to the USSR) . He then return to the US , isn't arrested for treason and is re-issued a US passport inside 24 hours. Think about that in the context of the time. Between 1962 to 1963 from both US and KGB sources it is known that some-one was trying to paint LHO as a communist/ Cuban supporter, later including a supposed visit by him to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico to meet the head of KGB assasinations in Latin America. A man named Kostikov. He posed as a pro Castro activist (footage of him doing just this can be found on youtube) whilst associating with hardcore anti Castro exiles with both his anti Castro work and his pro Castro associates working out of the same building in New Orleans. The point is , he was no loner, no recluse, no simple gun nut, he was something else. This is the tip of the iceberg of what was occuring involving the name LHO in the period running up to Dallas. What this means for Nov 22nd 1963 I do not know and I doubt we ever truly will but the story is much more intriguing than many realise or frankly want to realise. I fully expect to be attacked by some as a fantasist for simply what I've written above. But that's ok...

Last edited by copenhagen; 13 Apr 13 at 12:06..
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Old 13 Apr 13, 19:08
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ok ok I concede

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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
You're going to have to do better than that. What don't you agree with /dismiss as lunacy and why? You're going to have to be good though because what I wrote about is well documented. I can only assume you believe I've got crazy ideas about the JFK assassination being to do with aliens or something...
No self respecting Martian is likely to use a WW2 MP3 greasegun when kidnapping president Kennedy...

Photo must have been faked..
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Old 13 Apr 13, 20:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Actually I don't think its ever been truly established what the burglars were looking for.
Fair pint. Like the Warren Commission that deal has been buried in paper.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on Cubans being involved-the shady ops business of all flavors was full of Cubans until the 80s. Those guys came over and found themselves a niche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
That's fine and I freely admit to having such thoughts myself in years gone by. I'm not going try and convince of you of anything as this is one of those things that you look in to yourself and analyse or you dont. Basically as it so complex. The problem is there is a lot of (LBJ did it) kooks (maybe that includes Oliver Stone too) and they tend to muddy the waters of genuine research and people dont want to be accused of being Kooks so avoid the issue.
I find it interesting, so I've had a read and a think.
There is certain information we do know that makes for very interesting reading. The first thing I would say is dont get too hooked on rifles etc not that its not important but it is actually the least interesting , well in my opinion anyway. It is exceedingly likely that LHO was a low level operative for US intelligence, possibly CIA, most likey the ONI. He is painted as a socially inept recluse with little redeeming talents who just wanted the world to notice him. Yet this is a man who worked on Guam as part of a Top Secret radar system connected to the U2 yet supposedly an openly Communist man working in the USMC in the 50's. That wouldnt happen now , never mind then. A man who is taught Russian to a very high level at the height of the Cold War, who ends up in Russia as a "defector" having told the US embassy there he wishes to renounce his citizenship and assist the Russians with his USMC knowledge (during a time period when we know the CIA were running false defector programmes to the USSR) . He then return to the US , isn't arrested for treason and is re-issued a US passport inside 24 hours. Think about that in the context of the time. Between 1962 to 1963 from both US and KGB sources it is known that some-one was trying to paint LHO as a communist/ Cuban supporter, later including a supposed visit by him to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico to meet the head of KGB assasinations in Latin America. A man named Kostikov. He posed as a pro Castro activist (footage of him doing just this can be found on youtube) whilst associating with hardcore anti Castro exiles with both his anti Castro work and his pro Castro associates working out of the same building in New Orleans. The point is , he was no loner, no recluse, no simple gun nut, he was something else. This is the tip of the iceberg of what was occuring involving the name LHO in the period running up to Dallas. What this means for Nov 22nd 1963 I do not know and I doubt we ever truly will but the story is much more intriguing than many realise or frankly want to realise. I fully expect to be attacked by some as a fantasist for simply what I've written above. But that's ok...
Valid points, true.

I'm not completely sold on any theory on the killing. I wasn't going to bring up Oliver Stone, but yeah, that movie really muddied the waters.

I don't have any particular strong feelings about my theory, but here goes:

What bothers me is this: Oswald was too complex. If we go with the standard plan, a team of shooters drops JFK, and Oswald takes the fall and catches a bullet. So in Oswald is expendable.

Yet Oswald wanders around alone before and after the shooting. The man who is key to the cover plan is unsupervised, and then taken alive.

What sort of plan was that? You have your shooters in place, you've got your controller, but the man whose death is key to closing the deal (Oswald) as a non-event is loose. Someone should have been sitting on him.

Another point is the lack of hard evidence. Oswald is supposed to be the fall guy, sealing the deal as a nut. Yet all you have directly tying him to the killing is a couple fingerprints whose chain of custody is weak, the fact that the rifle used was ordered in his name, and a photo of him with a similar weapon.

That's OK for a real murder-seldom do you get a real mass of evidence. But for a President? You would think they would make sure things are a bit more compelling.

And pick a garden-variety nut, rather than one with such a complex past. After all, this is a fall guy, a corpse offered up as an excuse. Pick any small time nut, forge threatening letters to the White House, plant a case of the correct lot rifle ammunition in his house along with pictures and planning material from the shooting scene, and make sure he isn't taken alive.

That, along with my rifle theory, is my sticking point: if this was a planned hit, and not a lone gunman, the guys planning it had a really, really half-a**ed plan.

Yet they kept 100% security-in fifty years no one has leaked a word.

Extremely uneven performance, IMO.
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Old 13 Apr 13, 21:39
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The conspiacy ran deep indeed, Cope...

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No mate you get involved. You're going to have good stuff I don't know about in all this for sure!!
Note LBJ's unusual appearance...
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Old 14 Apr 13, 04:27
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Note LBJ's unusual appearance...
What exactly is your point Mark? What do you believe about this because I have no idea really. Do you have anything to say about Cuba or are you just trying to poke fun at some assumed far out JFK plot, you've projected on to me?
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Old 14 Apr 13, 04:30
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Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
No self respecting Martian is likely to use a WW2 MP3 greasegun when kidnapping president Kennedy...

Photo must have been faked..
Hadn't noticed this. You're just trolling me then. How boring....
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Old 14 Apr 13, 04:44
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Fair pint. Like the Warren Commission that deal has been buried in paper.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on Cubans being involved-the shady ops business of all flavors was full of Cubans until the 80s. Those guys came over and found themselves a niche.



Valid points, true.

I'm not completely sold on any theory on the killing. I wasn't going to bring up Oliver Stone, but yeah, that movie really muddied the waters.

I don't have any particular strong feelings about my theory, but here goes:

What bothers me is this: Oswald was too complex. If we go with the standard plan, a team of shooters drops JFK, and Oswald takes the fall and catches a bullet. So in Oswald is expendable.

Yet Oswald wanders around alone before and after the shooting. The man who is key to the cover plan is unsupervised, and then taken alive.

What sort of plan was that? You have your shooters in place, you've got your controller, but the man whose death is key to closing the deal (Oswald) as a non-event is loose. Someone should have been sitting on him.

Another point is the lack of hard evidence. Oswald is supposed to be the fall guy, sealing the deal as a nut. Yet all you have directly tying him to the killing is a couple fingerprints whose chain of custody is weak, the fact that the rifle used was ordered in his name, and a photo of him with a similar weapon.

That's OK for a real murder-seldom do you get a real mass of evidence. But for a President? You would think they would make sure things are a bit more compelling.

And pick a garden-variety nut, rather than one with such a complex past. After all, this is a fall guy, a corpse offered up as an excuse. Pick any small time nut, forge threatening letters to the White House, plant a case of the correct lot rifle ammunition in his house along with pictures and planning material from the shooting scene, and make sure he isn't taken alive.

That, along with my rifle theory, is my sticking point: if this was a planned hit, and not a lone gunman, the guys planning it had a really, really half-a**ed plan.

Yet they kept 100% security-in fifty years no one has leaked a word.

Extremely uneven performance, IMO.
You're incorrect actually .Alot of people have talked actually over the years before and after Dallas. No ones ever gone offical of course apart from a number of witnesses in Dealey Plaza at the time who then encountereed the obstructiveness of the FBI. You make good points above and as I said before, none of the evidence is conclusive. All I know is that there is too much evidecne to suggest that it didnt go down the way it really happened whatever that maybe. I think we can conclude that the government did do a cover up of certain evidence as we can be sure that the adminsitration was very concerned that anyone would come to the conclusion that Oswald had something to do with Castro or the Russians that might lead to a confrontation with them and nuclear war. This is why evidence of Oswald at Cuban and Soviet Embassies was suppressed especially when he supposedly met the head of KGB assasination in the Americas. It is known fully well that the Warren Commision was asked to make the public be satisfied that LHO was the killer....

Just to leave you with this fact and picture. LHO was arrested in a cinema. He had gone in there and not paid for a ticket. The manager did call the police but the police response was to send 30 officers, the Dallas DA and some of the press turned up. Either it was the biggest piece of intuition in police and media history or someone was tipped off.....


This is the man photographed as LHO coming out of the Soviet embassy in Mexico city....He's never been identified...

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Old 14 Apr 13, 05:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
What exactly is your point Mark? What do you believe about this because I have no idea really. Do you have anything to say about Cuba or are you just trying to poke fun at some assumed far out JFK plot, you've projected on to me?
Conspiracies plotted but aborted by th eunforseen are plausible, Cope
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Old 14 Apr 13, 05:10
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I can help you with his arrest. I really was troubled by that detail, until it was pointed out that the police had a description out for the killer of Tibbets (sp), the DPD officer shot by Oswald. They were responding to a cop killer. At some point during or after the theater incident the data flow widened and Oswald was connected to JFK.

You're right, there are a lot of oddities about the whole business. Some of it I attribute to the less sophisticated investigative methods of the day, and some to the 'oh, sh*t, this is HUGE, CYA!!!!' attitude that prevailed in the days immediately following the shooting.

Like I said, there's a couple stumbling blocks for me, such as the tremendous training requirement for the marksmen, while Oswald is 'in the wind' at the time of the hit. One suggests detailed planning, the other, amateur hour.

I lean more towards lone gunman followed by a media circus of unprecedented and historic scale, but I'm not married to the idea.

I will say this: if it was a conspiracy, the plotters have been greatly helped by all the hype.


Now, MLK's murder might very will be a conspiracy. That's one I could get behind.
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Old 14 Apr 13, 05:16
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Now, MLK's murder might very will be a conspiracy. That's one I could get behind.
Why?
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Old 14 Apr 13, 05:34
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The intriguing aspect of JFK's assassination for me has always been the sheer convenience of Oswald just happening to get a menial job in a conveniently high rise building, at a conveniently exact time, conveniently located in a prime spot overlooking JFK's future motorcade.

It looks like too clever and convenient of an arrangement to have been organized by one un-connected menial employee.


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Old 14 Apr 13, 05:43
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The intriguing aspect of JFK's assassination for me has always been the sheer convenience of Oswald just happening to get a menial job in a conveniently high rise building, at a conveniently exact time, conveniently located in a prime spot overlooking JFK's future motorcade.

It looks like too clever and convenient of an arrangement to have been organized by one un-connected menial employee.


Philip
He was far from unconnected. It seems blatantly clear that at a low level he worked for US intelligence, probably the ONI.... He certainly had contact with the FBI during 1963 aswell....The evidence suggests he was an informant getting involved with militant anti Castro groups. The intriguing point is that at the same time it seems is identity was being painted as a very left wing pro Castro character....There is a great deal of evidence of an Oswald "character" making very blatant displays of rudeness intermixed with "obvious" communist/ anti Kennedy sympathies. The rifle range and the car dealer incidents being the two most notable along with the surveillance of him or whoever was portraying him in contact with the Cuban and Soviet Embassy...

Last edited by copenhagen; 14 Apr 13 at 05:51..
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Old 14 Apr 13, 05:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Why?
Because it comes across much cleaner.

The shooter is a small-time criminal, a complete nobody. Zero ties with anyone. They have him buying the weapon in person, its a high-powered hunting rifle with a good scope. Weapon supplies, ammunition, and data on King are found in his rented room, a public area of which is the shooter's spot. The suspect is seen dumping his weapon and fleeing. The weapon has his prints on it. The shooter is taken alive, and denies the murder, but the above is irrefutable.

Nice, neat, tidy.

The shooter claims he was contacted by an agent of the FBI to serve as an informant. His agent tells him to do various things, such as stay at a particular rooming house, and by a rifle. The shooter claims he knows nothing of rifles, and ends up having to return the rifle in order to get the same model in a different caliber. He says that when the shooting goes down he's waiting for a phone call in the public area where the shots came from. Realizing he was set up, he ditches the weapon & flees.

That's what a conspiracy looks like, IMO: neat and tidy. Real murders are messy and have lots of unanswered points and loose ends.
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