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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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  #61  
Old 27 Aug 17, 07:50
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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Who West is proud of killing Indians. Hickok , Cody, Custer, Wentzel, Morgan, Boone, Crockett and thousands of others.
Point needed.
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  #62  
Old 27 Aug 17, 09:25
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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Who West is proud of killing Indians. Hickok , Cody, Custer, Wentzel, Morgan, Boone, Crockett and thousands of others.
can you document this?
....they didn't grow up into a culture where warfare [ killing ] was part of the culture, as it was to the NAs....
..some of these men just wanted to raise a family, or make money, keep their jobs
..Boone lived with the NAs for a long time...actually with them....without his family....IIRC....

...and if they said they were proud of it, was it just exaggeration/big talk for the newspapers/biographers/etc?
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  #63  
Old 27 Aug 17, 09:26
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Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
can you document this?
....they didn't grow up into a culture where warfare [ killing ] was part of the culture, as it was to the NAs....
..some of these men just wanted to raise a family, or make money, keep their jobs
..Boone lived with the NAs for a long time...actually with them....without his family....IIRC....

...and if they said they were proud of it, was it just exaggeration/big talk for the newspapers/biographers/etc?
The penny dreadfuls certainly screwed with history.
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  #64  
Old 27 Aug 17, 10:28
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Men and women captives [2] as well as teenage boys,[3] would usually face death by ritual torture. The torture had strong sacrificial overtones, usually to the sun.[4] Captives, especially warriors, were expected to show extreme self-control and composure during torture, singing "death songs", bragging of one's courage or deeds in battle, and otherwise showing defiance.[5] The torture was conducted publicly in the captors' village, and the entire population (including children) watched and participated.[6] Common torture techniques included burning the captive, which was done one hot coal at a time, rather than the Hollywood-style firewood pyres; cutting with knives, beatings with switches or sticks, and jabs from sharp sticks. Prisoners' fingernails were ripped out. Their fingers were broken, then twisted and yanked by children.
bold mine
children taught to torture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captiv...an_Indian_Wars
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  #65  
Old 27 Aug 17, 13:49
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This whole subject is far more complex than it's usually made out to be, particularly by those wanting to slam anything and everything White and European.

Starting with slaves. Indentured servitude was common in the colonies. Many poor came to America by way of being essentially slaves for a set period (typically 7 + years) to pay for their passage.
But, as to slaves... Where this problem really began for a long term issue was in 1807 when the US prohibited importation of new slaves from Africa. (Bet you forgot about that law...) What that did was create a situation where the slave trade to the US went from importing men to importing women. Why? To locally produce more slaves and get around the importation law.
That's the exact opposite effect the law was supposed to have. Anyone say the law of unintended consequences took over?
That law followed the ban on building or fitting out slave ships in 1794...

Of course, some Blacks still came to America after 1807, but they were free men not slaves. There were even free Blacks living in the Southern slave states.
But, all of that goes unnoticed by the down with Whites crowd.

This set of events meant there're be a permanent, large, Black population in the US. That has resulted in many of the racial issues we face today, like it or not.

Then there was the Native American issue. Again, far more complex than it would first appear. Some tribes, like the Cherokee, got @$$ raped by the US government. That was a tribe / nation that tried really hard to adapt to European culture. They invented a written language,



adopted European technology, and were trying to assimilate while retaining their culture socially. Andrew Jackson royally screwed them for no good reason other than bigotry and greed.

On the other hand, many of the New England and Great Lakes tribes took sides in the various wars between the European factions, and then between the US and Great Britain (and Canada). They often were on the losing side. That's their bad luck. When they lost in that war, they often lost their land, etc. Nothing new or different there.



The Great Lakes tribes under Tecumseh did this in the War of 1812. They sided with the British / Canadians who promised to let them have their own nation like forever... The US "won" in the sense that the war ended in a draw and the US didn't take kindly to the Indians being on the wrong side...

The plains Indian tribes were hunter gatherers. They no more had a fixed territory than fish in the ocean. Of course, they were going to end up screwed. Stone age culture clashing with an industrial age one, the stone age loses.

Much of the Indian loss can also be attributed to simply technology and technique that the Europeans brought with them. Europeans fenced their fields. The Spanish released pigs, chickens, horses, and other domestic animals into the wild deliberately to start breeding populations they could later use. Other Europeans lost livestock and domestic animals periodically too.
These animals often went on to forage on Indian crops that weren't fenced and the issue hadn't been a major problem before.
Clearing forest for fields and building walls and fences also cut down on natural hunting areas and removed indigenous wildlife in many cases from regions.
Throw in new diseases and the general technological superiority of Europeans and the Indians get marginalized or die off and it isn't some intentional genocide that did it. It was simply a clash of cultures, often unintended and with consequences that were never foreseen.
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  #66  
Old 27 Aug 17, 13:53
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Quote:
Where this problem really began for a long term issue was in 1807
Why import when you have and endless supply of home grown?
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  #67  
Old 27 Aug 17, 22:44
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Originally Posted by American87 View Post
That mattered at the time it was written, and it was a problem Thomas Jefferson famously struggled with. So true all in all, but I was referring to modern times. Why does it matter today if Americans owned slaves over 150 years ago?

There's a quote going around, and I'm not sure who started it, but it goes something like, "a bunch of whites and blacks who were never slaves, fighting a bunch of whites who were never nazis, tearing down statues the Democrats put up, and it's all Trump's fault."
I understand your viewpoint and am not unsympathetic.
It's the fashion now to apply modern ideals and sitting in judgement on events past- and it never works .
It's happening here in Australia too, regrettably.
"The past is a foreign country:they do things differently there" (L.P.Hartley).
Still, there it is in the Declaration of Independence, and would-be revisionists will always refer to it.
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  #68  
Old 28 Aug 17, 06:41
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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Why import when you have and endless supply of home grown?
That's why the South wanted the ban on imports. The importation of slaves lowered the value of the ones they already had. The result was the bulk of slaves brought to the US traveled in ships financed by and traveling from the Northern states.

But for the really bizarre, consider that some of the contraband taken from captured slavers could be sold to maintain the rest as evidence pending trial of the slavers.
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  #69  
Old 28 Aug 17, 13:36
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Originally Posted by American87 View Post
? And why does it matter if we took land from the Indians?
We made it matter by putting ourselves on higher moral pedestal. We proclaimed that "all men are created equal" while we still practiced slavery. We enshrined the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and then we turned around and screwed Native Americans and Mexicans, while we are on the subject, out of their right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." That is why it matters; we talk a good game but when it comes right down to it, we are hypocritical as hell! People like Caesar and Chingis Khan were total bastards, but they were not pretend humanitarians or hypocrites for that matter.
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Old 28 Aug 17, 15:22
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Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
We made it matter by putting ourselves on higher moral pedestal. We proclaimed that "all men are created equal" while we still practiced slavery. We enshrined the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and then we turned around and screwed Native Americans and Mexicans, while we are on the subject, out of their right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." That is why it matters; we talk a good game but when it comes right down to it, we are hypocritical as hell! People like Caesar and Chingis Khan were total bastards, but they were not pretend humanitarians or hypocrites for that matter.
As mentioned earlier, that mattered at the time it was written, and it was a problem Thomas Jefferson famously struggled with. So true all in all, but I was referring to modern times. Why does it matter today if Americans owned slaves over 150 years ago?

There's a quote going around, and I'm not sure who started it, but it goes something like, "a bunch of whites and blacks who were never slaves, fighting a bunch of whites who were never nazis, tearing down statues the Democrats put up, and it's all Trump's fault."
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Old 28 Aug 17, 17:12
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Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
We made it matter by putting ourselves on higher moral pedestal. We proclaimed that "all men are created equal" while we still practiced slavery. We enshrined the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and then we turned around and screwed Native Americans and Mexicans, while we are on the subject, out of their right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." That is why it matters; we talk a good game but when it comes right down to it, we are hypocritical as hell! People like Caesar and Chingis Khan were total bastards, but they were not pretend humanitarians or hypocrites for that matter.
we didn't screw NAs. We defeated them.
Go back through the thread and read my posts
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Old 28 Aug 17, 19:05
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Originally Posted by American87 View Post
So are we supposed to engage in this logical tit-for-tat, of "you enslaved us," "you took our land, "you broke this treaty?"

It seems odd that treaties 150 years old are being used as the groundwork for liberalism. Slavery too. Are we supposed to legislate as if slavery still exists?

It all seems..out of place.
You brought this up and you are getting responses. Don't ask the question and if you do not want to hear the answer.
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Old 28 Aug 17, 19:15
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Originally Posted by American87 View Post
As mentioned earlier, that mattered at the time it was written, and it was a problem Thomas Jefferson famously struggled with. So true all in all, but I was referring to modern times. Why does it matter today if Americans owned slaves over 150 years ago?
Because there are still a lot of people in the States sincerely believe that African-Americans are inferior solely by virtue of their skin color

Quote:
There's a quote going around, and I'm not sure who started it, but it goes something like, "a bunch of whites and blacks who were never slaves, fighting a bunch of whites who were never nazis, tearing down statues the Democrats put up, and it's all Trump's fault."
Yes it is the chump's fault, although not solely his fault, after all he is merely the fake Republican political opportunist that stirred the pot. So, a couple of fan facts.
1 - Klan members and neo-Nazis love the Donald
2 - Do not confuse reconstruction era Democrats with the current batch and for that matter that applies to Republicans. During the reconstruction the Democrats were conservative and the Republicans were the liberals. Indeed, in the 19th century Republicanism was diametrically opposed to what it meant to be conservative as conservative back then meant to be in favor of a monarchical government, aristocracy and a privileged church. I will be happy furnish more references than you can read in a year if you wish.
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Old 28 Aug 17, 19:24
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Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
Because there are still a lot of people in the States sincerely believe that African-Americans are inferior solely by virtue of their skin color



Yes it is the chump's fault, although not solely his fault, after all he is merely the fake Republican political opportunist that stirred the pot. So, a couple of fan facts.
1 - Klan members and neo-Nazis love the Donald
2 - Do not confuse reconstruction era Democrats with the current batch and for that matter that applies to Republicans. During the reconstruction the Democrats were conservative and the Republicans were the liberals. Indeed, in the 19th century Republicanism was diametrically opposed to what it meant to be conservative as conservative back then meant to be in favor of a monarchical government, aristocracy and a privileged church. I will be happy furnish more references than you can read in a year if you wish.
Excellent posting-very well done.

People tend to forget that the Founders were also the liberals of their day, and that was before political parties in the United States.

Both the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution were considered by some to be radical political documents.
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Old 28 Aug 17, 20:55
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You brought this up and you are getting responses. Don't ask the question and if you do not want to hear the answer.
I was asking the question because there is no reason to care about Americans owning slaves over 150 years ago. It's mental masturbation for liberals to fight a moral cruside against something that doesn't exist.
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