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Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. .

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  #16  
Old 25 Aug 17, 14:49
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John, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Few battles were being fought in true wood lands after the Mississippi was crossed. An add on question When was marksmanship first introduced
... the Mississippi was crossed in the mid-17th century; in the south, La Salle and what would become Louisiana date back to 1682, the north was referred to as les Pays d'en Haut, which straddled the Mississippi. Trading networks were set up, mid-western tribes had access to the Christian God and French made trade goods and firearms; Sioux chiefs had visited Montreal, Christian Sioux were living among the Iroquois and Algonquian near Montreal, as were Pawnee and Sioux slaves, before and into the 18th century, long before the French and Indian War in the Ohio country, Great Lakes and points east.
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Last edited by Marmat; 25 Aug 17 at 15:04..
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  #17  
Old 25 Aug 17, 15:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... the Mississippi was crossed in the mid-17th century; in the south, La Salle and what would become Louisiana date back to 1682, the north was referred to as les Pays d'en Haut, which straddled the Mississippi. Trading networks were set up, mid-western tribes had access to the Christian God and French made trade goods and firearms; Sioux chiefs had visited Montreal, Christian Sioux were living among the Iroquois and Algonquian near Montreal, as were Pawnee and Sioux slaves, before and into the 18th century, long before the French and Indian War in the Ohio country, Great Lakes and points east.
And long before repeating rifles so what is the relevance of this?
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  #18  
Old 25 Aug 17, 16:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
And long before repeating rifles so what is the relevance of this?
he was responding to HPJ, correct?
in response to my question on engagement range, and terrain, correct?
discussing range of repeating vs single shot rifles

Last edited by Moulin; 25 Aug 17 at 16:20..
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  #19  
Old 25 Aug 17, 18:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
he was responding to HPJ, correct?
in response to my question on engagement range, and terrain, correct?
discussing range of repeating vs single shot rifles
Range and repeating not connected. Adding repeating capability does not in itself affect range. Changing to high velocity does. Some early repeaters were not high velocity and some high velocity were not repeaters - confusing two different matters.
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  #20  
Old 25 Aug 17, 19:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Range and repeating not connected. Adding repeating capability does not in itself affect range. Changing to high velocity does. Some early repeaters were not high velocity and some high velocity were not repeaters - confusing two different matters.
a rifle's range is not pertinent to this thread? !!?
the thread title mentions multi-shot = repeaters are multi-shot weapons
...if you don't want to discuss these aspects, you can ignore them
but don't create a problem when there is none
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  #21  
Old 25 Aug 17, 19:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Range and repeating not connected. Adding repeating capability does not in itself affect range. Changing to high velocity does. Some early repeaters were not high velocity and some high velocity were not repeaters - confusing two different matters.
Quote:
The lever-action Winchester ’73 was most commonly chambered in a short, semi-bottle-necked cartridge dubbed the .44-40. A round that could be chambered in both handguns and rifles, when it was fired from a rifle it had limited range and power.
Quote:
As a result, the U.S. Army never seriously considered the Winchester lever rifle for adoption. What they did adopt was the much stronger “trapdoor action” designed by Colonel Hiram Berdan and improved by Springfield Armory employee Erskine S. Allen. This action employed a long, straight cartridge holding a .456 diameter lead, round nose bullet weighing 405 grains (later changed to 500 grains) and which had an effective range up to 2,400 yards. It smacked its target with nearly four times the energy of the .44-40 cartridge.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/spr...ally-won-west/

the Winchester 73 was limited in taking more powerful cartridges
Quote:
The one big complaint had always been the limitations of the design in terms of more powerful cartridges
Quote:
The government wanted a Winchester that could chamber the .45-70
Guns of the American West page 234

Last edited by Moulin; 25 Aug 17 at 20:03..
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  #22  
Old 25 Aug 17, 19:53
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Wilder's Brigade commanded by Colonel John T. Wilder.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_T._Wilder

"Colonel Wilder pioneered the use of breech-loading repeating rifles and developed the tactics that would be built upon in the future."
http://44henryrifle.webs.com/wildersbrigadehenry.htm


https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Lightnin.../dp/1885033176

"Blue Lightning: Wilder's Mounted Infantry Brigade in the Battle of Chickamauga"
Using horses for mobility and Spencer repeating rifles for firepower, Col. John T. Wilder's mounted infantry brigade of Indiana and Illinois troops was among the very best in the Union Army during the Civil War. This was especially evident in the 1863 battle of Chickamauga, Ga., where Wilder's so-called "Lightning Brigade" badly bloodied five different Confederate brigades in three days of fighting.
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  #23  
Old 25 Aug 17, 19:57
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Quote:
all of the scouts of the 17th Indiana were armed with Henry repeating rifles. These men also knew that the regiment was going to purchase the Spencer rifles but they opted for the Henry repeating rifle. The principal advantage of the Henry over the Spencer is definitely in the fact the Henry rifle holds sixteen cartridges while the Spencer’s magazine is limited to just seven. The second big advantage is that operating the lever of the Henry rifle also cocks the hammer. So not only does the Henry rifle hold more, it can fire a lot faster, which is a great asset if you are a scout needing to shoot your way out of a situation. A third advantage is the Henry rifle can be reloaded more rapidly and without having to remove and possibly lose part of the rifle, the Spencer has a separate magazine tube that must be removed from the rifle to reload it.
http://44henryrifle.webs.com/wildersbrigadehenry.htm
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  #24  
Old 25 Aug 17, 20:04
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The problem with both those rifles was that once the magazine was empty recharging it took quite a time in which fire was unavailable. This was a major discouragement for armies to adopt them. The ability to quickly reload the rifles of the 1880s using chargers and/or clips was a major factor in their adoption.
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Old 25 Aug 17, 20:20
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Interesting...Yes magazine fed weapons. I've been reading some of the development of the Colt 1911 pistol.

Quickly Googled up a wiki page about Magazine firearms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(firearms)

Yes looks like I would say the Gewehr 1888 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_1888
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  #26  
Old 25 Aug 17, 20:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
These all came together in the 1880s' The Austrian Army adopted the Mannlicher magazine rifle in 1885 and the French the Lebel in 1886 and Britain the Lee-Metford Mk I in 1887
Oh I see your post now
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  #27  
Old 25 Aug 17, 20:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoHarkaman View Post
Wilder's Brigade commanded by Colonel John T. Wilder.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_T._Wilder

"Colonel Wilder pioneered the use of breech-loading repeating rifles and developed the tactics that would be built upon in the future."
http://44henryrifle.webs.com/wildersbrigadehenry.htm


https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Lightnin.../dp/1885033176

"Blue Lightning: Wilder's Mounted Infantry Brigade in the Battle of Chickamauga"
Using horses for mobility and Spencer repeating rifles for firepower, Col. John T. Wilder's mounted infantry brigade of Indiana and Illinois troops was among the very best in the Union Army during the Civil War. This was especially evident in the 1863 battle of Chickamauga, Ga., where Wilder's so-called "Lightning Brigade" badly bloodied five different Confederate brigades in three days of fighting.
"That damned Yankee rifle! Ya load it on Sunday and it shoots all week!"
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  #28  
Old 25 Aug 17, 21:03
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If I remember correctly, two companies were armed with Henry's. The men bought them direct from the manufacturer. Many of the men enlisted in Union service in Eastern Tennessee and far West North Carolina were armed with either breechloaders or Spencers.

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  #29  
Old 25 Aug 17, 23:03
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Snap.

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Old 26 Aug 17, 00:42
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They took several along on the Lewis and Clark Expedition. All the tribes they visited wanted some!

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