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  #61  
Old 24 Aug 17, 14:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
The people who ran the Empire were from the establishment in England. I agree that plenty of Irish were involved but it was (and is) the case that poor young men die in wars started by rich old men. In the case of the British Empire those rich old men were almost exclusively from England. Of course there were exceptions, Wellington being the most obvious. Of course there were acts of barbarism by Irish men in the British Army (remember the scene in the movie Gandhi where the troops opened fire on the protesters? The officer in charge was Irish), but it was the British Empire and it was run from London, almost exclusively by English men.
It is a fallacy that a narrow English establishment ran and established the Empire. Numerous Scots took part in the running of the Empire becoming senior generals and Admirals, bankers, engineers poiticians and civil servants etc (where do you think David Cameron's family and those who ran the Hong Kong trading companies came from?)
It was called the British Empire for a reason. The first king to even use the term Great Britain was Scots.
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  #62  
Old 24 Aug 17, 15:17
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That individual Scots or Irish rose to rank, wealth, fame and prominence is not indicative of the respective populations at large being free, much less equal. Black slaves in the USA didn't get freer because some other black in some other places were doing well.
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  #63  
Old 24 Aug 17, 16:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
The Elgan Marbles are a good example but take a walk around the British Museum and ask yourself where all that stuff came from, especially if it dates from the time of the Empire.
Surry has answered your Elgin marbles diatribe. What about the 'crown jewels'?

You are a typical product of your own Irish historical education.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/ir...s-irish-author

http://www.historytoday.com/tom-reil...irish-question

Of course Cromwell could be ruthless, especially at times for forfilling to the letter, the rules of war of those times, but he was no worse than any great general of his time....But sometimes commanders have a personal axe to grind and grind it with relish.....So!

....Don't forget Mac Colla's Irish who went a butchering, burning raping in Scotland with Montrose.

Paul
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Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 24 Aug 17 at 16:47..
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  #64  
Old 25 Aug 17, 05:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
I already told you. It was contemporary Protestant pamphleteers.
Ok, the ones that have been totally discredited by every historian since and many people at the time. Those ones? Right, 'nuff said.



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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
If you rebel you get your land taken away from you. Not a difficult concept to understand. I very much doubt that all the land was in Catholic hands before the first Plantation.
Before the Plantation they were all Irish. The Plantations happened after an invasion and conquest.
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  #65  
Old 25 Aug 17, 05:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
The Elgin Marbles were legitimately obtained from the legal owners. Legal owners at the time of removal being the Ottomans who had controlled Athens since 1460. The Parthenon was a Turkish fort at the time and they were hardly likely to allow Elgin to take anything they didn't want him to take.

I suspect that there are very few items in the museum that were actually taken by force or are you suggesting that museums should only hold exhibits found locally?
I didn't say they were taken by force but they were taken and they certainly weren't given by the locals.
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  #66  
Old 25 Aug 17, 05:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
Surry has answered your Elgin marbles diatribe. What about the 'crown jewels'?

You are a typical product of your own Irish historical education.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/ir...s-irish-author

http://www.historytoday.com/tom-reil...irish-question

Of course Cromwell could be ruthless, especially at times for forfilling to the letter, the rules of war of those times, but he was no worse than any great general of his time....But sometimes commanders have a personal axe to grind and grind it with relish.....So!

....Don't forget Mac Colla's Irish who went a butchering, burning raping in Scotland with Montrose.

Paul
Two revisionist historians, looking for evidence to support their proposition, is hardly a revelation. The re-population and deaths from conflict, starvation and disease are agreed by just about everyone. He came to Ireland and conquered the country, causing a reduction of around 40% in the population in the process.

One article by one of your referenced authors isn't a comprehensive critique of the Irish education system. I'm very critical of it in many areas but I don't know much about the UK system so wouldn't offer opinions one way or the other on that matter.
I do know that no sector (they call themselves a profession, right?) is more self-aggrandising and self congratulatory than teachers.
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  #67  
Old 25 Aug 17, 05:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
The re-population and deaths from conflict, starvation and disease are agreed by just about everyone. He came to Ireland and conquered the country, causing a reduction of around 40% in the population in the process.
It takes less than two minutes search to find that the figure of 40% is not accepted by everyone.
You're just betraying your own intense nationalism.
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  #68  
Old 25 Aug 17, 05:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Before the Plantation they were all Irish. The Plantations happened after an invasion and conquest.
Was Ireland a country? Was there some King, Parliament or other central authority?
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  #69  
Old 25 Aug 17, 06:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acheron View Post
That individual Scots or Irish rose to rank, wealth, fame and prominence is not indicative of the respective populations at large being free, much less equal. Black slaves in the USA didn't get freer because some other black in some other places were doing well.
First mixed race US head of state was in 2008. First Scots head of state, ruler, in England was in 1603. First Irish born, from a family that had lived for many generations in Ireland, commander of the British army in the field was in 1809. The first head of state of Welsh decent in England was in 1485 for that matter.
I think you are falling victim to German ww1 and 2 propaganda in your image of a narrow English elite subjugating the rest of the people in Britain.

There are no similarities between the historic black population in the US and Scots and Irish in the UK.
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  #70  
Old 25 Aug 17, 06:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
You're just betraying your own intense nationalism.
I'm not a Nationalist at all, in fact I detest it. If we were still part of the UK I'm sure I'd be fine with it. As long as the laws are fair, the people are equal and free within a democratic country I don't see the big deal about what flag flies or where the Parliament is. I'd be okay with a federal Europe too, as long as it was properly constituted.

If you want to open another thread, or move the discussion on this thread, to terrible things that Irish people have done or our shortcomings and double standards as a Nation I'll happily contribute.
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  #71  
Old 25 Aug 17, 06:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
First mixed race US head of state was in 2008. First Scots head of state, ruler, in England was in 1603. First Irish born, from a family that had lived for many generations in Ireland, commander of the British army in the field was in 1809. The first head of state of Welsh decent in England was in 1485 for that matter.
I think you are falling victim to German ww1 and 2 propaganda in your image of a narrow English elite subjugating the rest of the people in Britain.

There are no similarities between the historic black population in the US and Scots and Irish in the UK.
It is universally true that those who govern do so in their interests and the interests of those whom they represent. Until relatively recently that meant an elite governing in the interests on the elite.
The less representation a group had the less it got.
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  #72  
Old 25 Aug 17, 10:14
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Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
It is universally true that those who govern do so in their interests and the interests of those whom they represent. Until relatively recently that meant an elite governing in the interests on the elite.
The less representation a group had the less it got.
Your last sentence betrays your socialist beliefs. Blind chance aside, one gets what one earns. Socialism, like feudalism, is where the rulers give handouts to their supporters taken from their opponents. For the most part and certainly in the c19th government has not believed in zero sum games ...
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  #73  
Old 25 Aug 17, 10:27
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Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
Your last sentence betrays your socialist beliefs. Blind chance aside, one gets what one earns. Socialism, like feudalism, is where the rulers give handouts to their supporters taken from their opponents. For the most part and certainly in the c19th government has not believed in zero sum games ...
Wrong again. I'd a liberal or, as they call then in the USA, a libertarian.
I don't like organised labour (and any other groups which seek to place themselves between the people and their government) and would never join a Union or even work anywhere which is unionised. I am a democrat (not the party) and a republican (in the classical sense).
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  #74  
Old 25 Aug 17, 11:19
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Was Ireland a country? Was there some King, Parliament or other central authority?
Yes and no. There were nine Gaelic kingdoms in the island but there was a High King of Ireland who had titular authority over them but often had problems enforcing it. With the Norman invasion of Ireland the English monarch assumed the title of Lord of Ireland holding it as a fief from the Pope. This became an issue when Henry VIII decided to put two fingers up to Rome and parliament in Westminster declared him King of England Wales and Ireland.
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Old 25 Aug 17, 11:39
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First mixed race US head of state was in 2008. First Scots head of state, ruler, in England was in 1603. First Irish born, from a family that had lived for many generations in Ireland, commander of the British army in the field was in 1809. The first head of state of Welsh decent in England was in 1485 for that matter.
.
First Asian Member of Parliament elected 1892 a Parsi from Bombay.
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