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  #46  
Old 23 Aug 17, 14:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
Shaw, Haldane, Russell,.... advocated the elimination of those they considered unfit to live.
I take it you didn't read the link then.
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  #47  
Old 23 Aug 17, 15:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Post independence, no. Pre-independence yes; we were occupied and succumbed into the UK so we were part of it. We never made decisions or set policy, we just bled and died.
Baloney. there were plenty of Irish men and women out in the world making decisions, influencing things etc and some of them not terribly PC - for example take George Thomas who stole a kingdom from the Mogul Empire and ruled it as his personal fiefdom. The Irish took to the British Empire as much as anyone else - possibly more. They didn't cringe bleed and die and to suggest otherwise is to cringe and defame the Irish.
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  #48  
Old 23 Aug 17, 15:38
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Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Not from us; we'd bugger all left by then.
I was thinking more about the shopping trips you guys did in Egypt, the Middle East and India etc.
That's not elaboration. That's just another comment without substance.

Perhaps some evidence of those jewels and statues that were stolen.

Paul
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  #49  
Old 23 Aug 17, 15:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Not from us; we'd bugger all left by then.
I was thinking more about the shopping trips you guys did in Egypt, the Middle East and India etc.
and how many Irish went on these shopping trips with us ?
Its amazing, you seem to have conveniently forgotten about those Irish who took advantage of Empire building to profit themselves.
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  #50  
Old 23 Aug 17, 16:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
...
What about FDR? Should his statues not disappear because of his racist statements ;and the statue of Obama, whose ancestors owned slaves? And Caesar, Vercingetorix, Mohammed,W.Wilson, Kennedy, Johnson,...
Hey now.... why are you dragging Americans into this thread?
Was our kook-fringe the one that started this whole Pan-Vandalism movement into being?
I thought it was the Taliban that they were Aping.

And, I would be careful about mentioning the destruction of basically everything made by the hand of man. Since the driving force behind this is a handful of Anarchists that hate everyone anyway, that's probably just what they want.
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Last edited by The Exorcist; 23 Aug 17 at 18:42..
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  #51  
Old 23 Aug 17, 17:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Post independence, no. Pre-independence yes; we were occupied and succumbed into the UK so we were part of it. We never made decisions or set policy, we just bled and died.
As did most recruited from England,Scotland and Wales
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  #52  
Old 24 Aug 17, 03:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
Hey now.... why are you dragging Americans into this thread?
Was our kook-fringe the one that started this whole Pan-Vandalism movement into being?
I thought it was the Taliban that they were Aping.

And, I would be careful about mentioning the destruction of basically everything made by the hand of man. Since the driving force behind this is a handful of Anarchists that hate everyone anyway, that's probably just what they want.
It is the same principle : there are in Europe also countless statues of persons who are questionable following the liberals : example : the statues of marshall Lyautey, French colonial general :his conquests also resulted in atrocities .I expect that the liberals will demand the removal of his statues,because for the liberals (not only the anarchists ) everything Europe and the White Man has done, is wrong .

And if the statues of Rhodes and Cromwell must disappear, why not all references to the Vikings,who are not PC, and why not destroy all references to the Muslims who,during several centuries, were infesting the Mediterranean and the coasts of Europe and were enslaving millions of people ;whole regions of Austria were destroyed by the Muslims .

Those who started this new iconoclasm should know that it is a double-edged sword
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  #53  
Old 24 Aug 17, 03:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Baloney. there were plenty of Irish men and women out in the world making decisions, influencing things etc and some of them not terribly PC - for example take George Thomas who stole a kingdom from the Mogul Empire and ruled it as his personal fiefdom. The Irish took to the British Empire as much as anyone else - possibly more. They didn't cringe bleed and die and to suggest otherwise is to cringe and defame the Irish.
The people who ran the Empire were from the establishment in England. I agree that plenty of Irish were involved but it was (and is) the case that poor young men die in wars started by rich old men. In the case of the British Empire those rich old men were almost exclusively from England. Of course there were exceptions, Wellington being the most obvious. Of course there were acts of barbarism by Irish men in the British Army (remember the scene in the movie Gandhi where the troops opened fire on the protesters? The officer in charge was Irish), but it was the British Empire and it was run from London, almost exclusively by English men.
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  #54  
Old 24 Aug 17, 03:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
That's not elaboration. That's just another comment without substance.

Perhaps some evidence of those jewels and statues that were stolen.

Paul
The Elgan Marbles are a good example but take a walk around the British Museum and ask yourself where all that stuff came from, especially if it dates from the time of the Empire.
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  #55  
Old 24 Aug 17, 03:43
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
As did most recruited from England,Scotland and Wales
Agreed.
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  #56  
Old 24 Aug 17, 03:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
and how many Irish went on these shopping trips with us ?
Its amazing, you seem to have conveniently forgotten about those Irish who took advantage of Empire building to profit themselves.
There were plenty of Irish on the trips but they never organised them and rarely drove the bus.
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  #57  
Old 24 Aug 17, 09:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
My figures are from The Civil War 1642–1651 by Michael St John Parker.
There's a good Wiki page on the subject with considerable links and suggested reading. That also cites the 600,000 number. Which other sources are you talking about?
The 618,000 figure all come from William Petty in 1665-1666. The figure the Wki page gives is for the Irish Catholic/Royalist side
Unknown;
15,000–20,000 battlefield casualties,
over 200,000 civilian casualties (from war-related famine or disease)[1]
~50,000 deported as indentured labourers
Referenced to "Mícheál Ó Siochrú/RTÉ ONE, Cromwell in Ireland Part 2. Broadcast 16 September 2008."


Quote:
Yes, the lack of peasants to work the land was an issue in Ulster after Cromwell but the hatred and fear between the two sides meant that Catholics were still not used. Catholics were legally barred from buying land until 1778 and were not given equal rights within the UK until 1829.
The Ulster issue is understandable after the 1641 massacres ...
Catholic land ownership was 20% after the Restoration.
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  #58  
Old 24 Aug 17, 09:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
The 618,000 figure all come from William Petty in 1665-1666. The figure the Wki page gives is for the Irish Catholic/Royalist side
Unknown;
15,000–20,000 battlefield casualties,
over 200,000 civilian casualties (from war-related famine or disease)[1]
~50,000 deported as indentured labourers
Referenced to "Mícheál Ó Siochrú/RTÉ ONE, Cromwell in Ireland Part 2. Broadcast 16 September 2008."
So where's your source for 200,000 Protestant Planters killed?




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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
The Ulster issue is understandable after the 1641 massacres ...
... and before that, during the Plantation which dispossessed them in the first place?
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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Catholic land ownership was 20% after the Restoration.
Yes, for a brief period before it was taken away again.
Before the invasion and plantation the land was 100% theirs.
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  #59  
Old 24 Aug 17, 11:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
So where's your source for 200,000 Protestant Planters killed?
I already told you. It was contemporary Protestant pamphleteers.

Quote:
... and before that, during the Plantation which dispossessed them in the first place?
Yes, for a brief period before it was taken away again.
Before the invasion and plantation the land was 100% theirs.
If you rebel you get your land taken away from you. Not a difficult concept to understand. I very much doubt that all the land was in Catholic hands before the first Plantation.
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Old 24 Aug 17, 14:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
The Elgan Marbles are a good example but take a walk around the British Museum and ask yourself where all that stuff came from, especially if it dates from the time of the Empire.
The Elgin Marbles were legitimately obtained from the legal owners. Legal owners at the time of removal being the Ottomans who had controlled Athens since 1460. The Parthenon was a Turkish fort at the time and they were hardly likely to allow Elgin to take anything they didn't want him to take.

I suspect that there are very few items in the museum that were actually taken by force or are you suggesting that museums should only hold exhibits found locally?
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