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  #31  
Old 23 Aug 17, 10:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
What massacres were there in Kerry?
YOU don't know ? an Irishman

IRA POWs were murdered by Free State soldiers : they were tied to landmines . Nice .
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  #32  
Old 23 Aug 17, 10:23
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Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
There is in Dublin a statue of the nazi G.B. Shaw,who advocated the use of gaz chambers to exterminate those who are unfit to live .Why should one not remove this statue ?

Silly me : because he was a left winger .
You really need to read more before you post... and don't listen to polemics from ill-informed nutters on Fox News.
This is a reasonable summary of Shaw's political views.
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  #33  
Old 23 Aug 17, 10:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
YOU don't know ? an Irishman

IRA POWs were murdered by Free State soldiers : they were tied to landmines . Nice .
Link please.

Edit; I found one .
Nope, I didn't know about that. I don't think there are any statues to those involved though.
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  #34  
Old 23 Aug 17, 11:57
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Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Yes, the same ones I posted links about. They were discredited at the time and on multiple occasions since. This is a history forum.
Yes, it's a history forum and you immediately went for the highest estimate of deaths in the Cromwellian (re)conquest (modern estimates are much lower), then on to minimize the Protestant deaths in the 1641 rebellion.


Quote:
It was common to get rid of the Lord but not to remove every occupant of the farms and shops and villages and towns and force march them hundreds of miles to a barren and windswept place they had never seem, if they were lucky enough to survive the trip.
It wasn't common to remove all the tenants from the plantations either - who was going to do all the farming? There were never enough settlers.

Quote:
The land may have been sold to the Planters but it certainly wasn't purchased from the previous owners or occupants.
No, the land was forfeit for rebelling against the Crown. Then in the 1650s it was forfeit for having backed the King against Parliament. Mind you it wasn't as if the previous owners had always acquired the land legally. Or peacefully.
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  #35  
Old 23 Aug 17, 12:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Link please.

Edit; I found one .
Nope, I didn't know about that. I don't think there are any statues to those involved though.
Funny (peculiar) thing is nobody manufactured mines at the time. Anti personnel mines were used in the ACW by the Confederates and later by the British in South Africa to close fords to Boer Commandos. The last major use had been in the Russo Japanese war. Then until the Germans started using anti tank mines in 1918 mines were not used and no body made them. The Germans did make a lot of types of AT mine but almost all were assembled in field workshops (sometimes using factory made components coupled with available munitions). These would certainly not be available to anyone in Ireland at this time.

Factory made AT mines began to be produced in the 1930s and AP mines were produced initially to protect AT minefields. Given this any mines used in Ireland would have to be some form of IED
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  #36  
Old 23 Aug 17, 12:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
So you'd be cool with statues of Hitler outside Germany's parliament building?
In fact I recently had my DNA tested and I am more Irish than anything else but don't see the need to remove images of Cromwell.

Hitler is a pretty extreme benchmark by which to judge all other historical figures. Personally, a statue of him being in existence is not a big deal, provided it is used in the right way, as a gateway to the historical facts. In my nerdy early teens I had a stamp collection which included an image of Hitler. I never thought I should burn it.
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  #37  
Old 23 Aug 17, 12:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Yes, it's a history forum and you immediately went for the highest estimate of deaths in the Cromwellian (re)conquest (modern estimates are much lower), then on to minimize the Protestant deaths in the 1641 rebellion.
My figures are from The Civil War 1642Ė1651 by Michael St John Parker.
There's a good Wiki page on the subject with considerable links and suggested reading. That also cites the 600,000 number. Which other sources are you talking about?



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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
It wasn't common to remove all the tenants from the plantations either - who was going to do all the farming? There were never enough settlers.
Yes, the lack of peasants to work the land was an issue in Ulster after Cromwell but the hatred and fear between the two sides meant that Catholics were still not used. Catholics were legally barred from buying land until 1778 and were not given equal rights within the UK until 1829.



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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
No, the land was forfeit for rebelling against the Crown. Then in the 1650s it was forfeit for having backed the King against Parliament. Mind you it wasn't as if the previous owners had always acquired the land legally. Or peacefully.
No, it was taken in the 1600's during the first plantation. Everything after that was an attempt to get it back. About one third was returned after the Restoration but lost again after the Williamite War of 1689.
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  #38  
Old 23 Aug 17, 12:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Funny (peculiar) thing is nobody manufactured mines at the time. Anti personnel mines were used in the ACW by the Confederates and later by the British in South Africa to close fords to Boer Commandos. The last major use had been in the Russo Japanese war. Then until the Germans started using anti tank mines in 1918 mines were not used and no body made them. The Germans did make a lot of types of AT mine but almost all were assembled in field workshops (sometimes using factory made components coupled with available munitions). These would certainly not be available to anyone in Ireland at this time.

Factory made AT mines began to be produced in the 1930s and AP mines were produced initially to protect AT minefields. Given this any mines used in Ireland would have to be some form of IED
Thanks Mark. That may be why the accusations were dismissed at the time they were made (well after the conflict).
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  #39  
Old 23 Aug 17, 12:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
In fact I recently had my DNA tested and I am more Irish than anything else but don't see the need to remove images of Cromwell.

Hitler is a pretty extreme benchmark by which to judge all other historical figures. Personally, a statue of him being in existence is not a big deal, provided it is used in the right way, as a gateway to the historical facts. In my nerdy early teens I had a stamp collection which included an image of Hitler. I never thought I should burn it.
It is interesting that Cromwell was regarded in the UK as a tyrant and a national embarrassment until the late Victorian period. His statue at Westminster was only erected about the turn of the last century.
The issue isn't images or stamps; it is what they symbolise and represent.
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  #40  
Old 23 Aug 17, 12:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
It is interesting that Cromwell was regarded in the UK as a tyrant and a national embarrassment until the late Victorian period. His statue at Westminster was only erected about the turn of the last century.
The issue isn't images or stamps; it is what they symbolise and represent.
I know but that is why this destruction strays into 'thought crime' because it can mean different things to different people and be used in different ways and all the underlying facts and their interpretation and historical significance is also usually debateable, creating a lively industry to keep historians employed.
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  #41  
Old 23 Aug 17, 12:58
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Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
I know but that is why this destruction strays into 'thought crime' because it can mean different things to different people and be used in different ways and all the underlying facts and their interpretation and historical significance is also usually debateable, creating a lively industry to keep historians employed.
True, but keeping historians employed should not be frowned upon on a history forum!

I often think that the goal of the study of modern History is a quest to take politics and strip of it's bluster, bias and spin and distill it until only the truth remains.
That is why things like revisionism are not necessarily a bad thing, unless it is just replacing the bias of yesterday with the bias of today.
That is why casting Cromwell as a monster can be seen as revisionism or the removal of late Victorian revisionism.
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  #42  
Old 23 Aug 17, 13:15
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Not from us; we'd bugger all left by then.
I was thinking more about the shopping trips you guys did in Egypt, the Middle East and India etc.
You guys? I went to Egypt once but didn't steal anything, honest. The furthest east I've been is Volgograd and I'm sure we never plundered anything from there.

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Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Post independence, no. Pre-independence yes; we were occupied and succumbed into the UK so we were part of it. We never made decisions or set policy, we just bled and died.
With respect, you didn't.

The idea that the present generation should feel either aggrieved at injustices that took place before they were born or guilt for centuries old misdemeanors is ridiculous.

As an English bloke moving to Ireland I expected to encounter this sort of sentiment from time to time, but to be fair to the lovely, welcoming locals around here - many of whom have extended families in the UK thanks to emigration - my fears were unfounded. In fact the only time this collective guilt syndrome has cropped up was from an English visitor; "don't the Irish hate us for what we did to them?" sort of attitude. Well I didn't do anything to anybody, and I''m pretty sure my family never have either. If anybody expects guilt, or an apology from me they will have a long wait.

Cromwell and Rhodes: Let the statues stand. They were men of their time, maybe bastards by today's standards but they were important figures, the same could be said of Churchill.

Many great men (and women) are deeply flawed, that goes for historical figures as well as sportsmen too - Maradona, Suarez, Best, Gascoigne and so on.
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Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
In fact I recently had my DNA tested and I am more Irish than anything else but don't see the need to remove images of Cromwell.
Me too, English of Irish/Scottish/Welsh/Channel Islands heritage with a bit of English thrown in! Typical Liverpool in fact

The amusing irony of Cromwell is him being played by an Irishman in the 1970 film - Richard Harris, native of Limerick not far from here and who played racquets for Kilkee, very close to where i live. There is a statue of him outside a cafe overlooking the seafront

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  #43  
Old 23 Aug 17, 13:36
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Originally Posted by VillyVonka View Post
You guys? I went to Egypt once but didn't steal anything, honest. The furthest east I've been is Volgograd and I'm sure we never plundered anything from there.
When I say you guys Iím referring to English people in a historical context. Obviously there is no responsibility on the current generation for historical events, good or bad.

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With respect, you didn't.
As above; I was referring to the Irish in a historical context.

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The idea that the present generation should feel either aggrieved at injustices that took place before they were born or guilt for centuries old misdemeanors is ridiculous.
Agreed, be they misdemeanours or horrific acts of barbarism.

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Originally Posted by VillyVonka View Post
As an English bloke moving to Ireland I expected to encounter this sort of sentiment from time to time, but to be fair to the lovely, welcoming locals around here - many of whom have extended families in the UK thanks to emigration - my fears were unfounded. In fact the only time this collective guilt syndrome has cropped up was from an English visitor; "don't the Irish hate us for what we did to them?" sort of attitude. Well I didn't do anything to anybody, and I''m pretty sure my family never have either. If anybody expects guilt, or an apology from me they will have a long wait.
Iím glad to hear it. Iíve never experienced anything other than warmth and friendliness from people in England, even when Irish terrorists were murdering people there (some Welsh are weird but I think thatís more to do with in-breeding than animosity ).

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Cromwell and Rhodes: Let the statues stand. They were men of their time, maybe bastards by today's standards but they were important figures, the same could be said of Churchill.
Yes, but I havenít heard any criticism of Rhodes or Cromwell in the UK media as long as I can remember. Statues and memorials are generally a source of jingoistic nationalism rather than reflective examination. Since Brexit the bombast and bluster is on a whole different level in the UK.


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Originally Posted by VillyVonka View Post
The amusing irony of Cromwell is him being played by an Irishman in the 1970 film - Richard Harris, native of Limerick not far from here and who played racquets for Kilkee, very close to where i live. There is a statue of him outside a cafe overlooking the seafront

Yea, that is ironic!

By the way, we Irish are guilty of the same sort of BS so I'm not claiming any moral superiority here. We gave the world some great literature and a few holidays (Halloween and St. Patrick's Day) but we also gave it priests who like raping children...
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  #44  
Old 23 Aug 17, 13:54
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You really need to read more before you post... and don't listen to polemics from ill-informed nutters on Fox News.
This is a reasonable summary of Shaw's political views.
Shaw, Haldane, Russell,.... advocated the elimination of those they considered unfit to live .

They were also left wingers : Shaw was praising the SU as the heaven on earth, everyone knows the political positions of Haldane and Russell .

I don't care if they have statues, but the whole thing is only showing the hypocrisy of the left ,for whom all statues from non left wingers must disappear .

What about FDR? Should his statues not disappear because of his racist statements ;and the statue of Obama, whose ancestors owned slaves? And Caesar, Vercingetorix, Mohammed,W.Wilson, Kennedy, Johnson,...

One can find something from all great persons from the past : all those arrogant leftwingers who condemn the past because in the past,people behaved not like they want people of the present to behave, should remember that they also will become the past and will be judged by future generations .
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  #45  
Old 23 Aug 17, 14:44
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Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
One can find something from all great persons from the past : all those arrogant leftwingers who condemn the past because in the past,people behaved not like they want people of the present to behave, should remember that they also will become the past and will be judged by future generations .
Arrogance is not confined to any political hue or religious belief. It is as universal as fear and ignorance.
The issue is not really about the historical figures but rather what the symbolise in the present political context.
In the case of Confederate generals it is their link to present day and recent racism and the use and misuse of those statues as symbols for fascists and racists now.
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