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  #16  
Old 23 Aug 17, 05:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Even by the standards of the time Rhodes was an odious character. He's got so much blood on his hands I think removing a statue of him would just count as good taste rather than decolonisation. I don't know if the Belgians have statues of Leopold the Second but he's come under the same category.
So let's debate the rights and wrongs of what happened, not erase it from history. The point made in the Oxford debate was that on same measure, statues of Churchill should be torn as he held similar views, as did Abraham Lincoln. You'll be wanting statues of Cromwell torn down next.

It's just a big outrage fest of people that like to sneer from the moral high ground and consider themselves better than the plebs for their virtuous opinions.
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  #17  
Old 23 Aug 17, 05:40
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Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
So let's debate the rights and wrongs of what happened, not erase it from history. The point made in the Oxford debate was that on same measure, statues of Churchill should be torn as he held similar views, as did Abraham Lincoln. You'll be wanting statues of Cromwell torn down next.

It's just a big outrage fest of people that like to sneer from the moral high ground and consider themselves better than the plebs for their virtuous opinions.
Cromwell? Absolutely. That Ba****d murdered 41% of our population through ethnic cleansing, the mass murder of civilians and the disease and starvation which resulted from those ethnic cleansings (to clear the way for the Plantation of Ulster and parts of Munster by Scottish Protestants). The death tole was 618,000 from a population of 1,500,000 and he was only here for a few years. Having Statues of him is no better than having statues of Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot.

I bet you don't learn that in school.
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Old 23 Aug 17, 06:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Cromwell? Absolutely. That Ba****d murdered 41% of our population through ethnic cleansing, the mass murder of civilians and the disease and starvation which resulted from those ethnic cleansings (to clear the way for the Plantation of Ulster and parts of Munster by Scottish Protestants). The death tole was 618,000 from a population of 1,500,000 and he was only here for a few years. Having Statues of him is no better than having statues of Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot.

I bet you don't learn that in school.
History will be even more poorly understood if the self arbiters of righteousness are free to suppress this and that at their own discretion. It's torch and pitchfork democracy that will amount to scorched earth of all historical figures, presumably excluding those the righteous deem suitably in keeping with the 'correct thought'. I see your Hitler and raise you the Taliban - it's an infantile game to play.
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Old 23 Aug 17, 06:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Cromwell? Absolutely. That Ba****d murdered 41% of our population through ethnic cleansing, the mass murder of civilians and the disease and starvation which resulted from those ethnic cleansings (to clear the way for the Plantation of Ulster and parts of Munster by Scottish Protestants). The death tole was 618,000 from a population of 1,500,000 and he was only here for a few years. Having Statues of him is no better than having statues of Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot.

I bet you don't learn that in school.
Yes, at the same time as we learn of the 200,000 Protestant settlers massacred in 1641.
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  #20  
Old 23 Aug 17, 07:55
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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Yes, at the same time as we learn of the 200,000 Protestant settlers massacred in 1641.
I presume you are referring to the rebellion of 1641, There were only 40,000 Protestant Planters in Ireland at the time and over the period of the rebellion approximately 5,000 to 10,000 were killed. Some figures put the total deaths as low as 1,250 but it was probably closer to 10,000. Do remember that the Protestants were invaders and the dispossessed locals were trying to get their farms and homes back.

Wikipedia gives the number of deaths at 4000, with most of them dying from cold and hunger rather that violent acts.

Can you give a source for your figure of 200,000?
My initial source is the Civil War Museum in Warwick Castle.

More from the BBC here and here and from Wikipedia here
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Old 23 Aug 17, 08:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
History will be even more poorly understood if the self arbiters of righteousness are free to suppress this and that at their own discretion. It's torch and pitchfork democracy that will amount to scorched earth of all historical figures, presumably excluding those the righteous deem suitably in keeping with the 'correct thought'. I see your Hitler and raise you the Taliban - it's an infantile game to play.
So you'd be cool with statues of Hitler outside Germany's parliament building?
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Old 23 Aug 17, 08:41
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Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Not from us; we'd bugger all left by then.
I was thinking more about the shopping trips you guys did in Egypt, the Middle East and India etc.
And many of those guys were Irish
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  #23  
Old 23 Aug 17, 09:16
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And many of those guys were Irish
They were indeed.
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Old 23 Aug 17, 09:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
I presume you are referring to the rebellion of 1641, There were only 40,000 Protestant Planters in Ireland at the time and over the period of the rebellion approximately 5,000 to 10,000 were killed. Some figures put the total deaths as low as 1,250 but it was probably closer to 10,000.
The figure 200,000 came from Parliamentary pampleteers in 1642. The figure 618,000 was an estimate by William Petty in 1665-1666.

Quote:
Do remember that the Protestants were invaders and the dispossessed locals were trying to get their farms and homes back.
The vast majority of Irish people owned no property. The disposessed were land-owners who had rebelled against the Crown and had, as a result of their losing, their property taken from them and given (sold) to loyal subjects. This was normal practice everywhere, for a long, long time.
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Old 23 Aug 17, 09:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Even by the standards of the time Rhodes was an odious character. He's got so much blood on his hands I think removing a statue of him would just count as good taste rather than decolonisation. I don't know if the Belgians have statues of Leopold the Second but he's come under the same category.
Why should he not have a statue in Belgium ? He did not murder people in Belgium .

I would not object to Mobutu having a statue in Congo, although he murdered a lot of people in Congo.

Caesar also has a lot of statues,and Napoleon, and MassÚna and Hirohito,and Lenin (in Oakland).

And,are there no statues for the responsibles of the Portadown and Kerry massacres ?

Last edited by ljadw; 23 Aug 17 at 09:47..
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  #26  
Old 23 Aug 17, 09:58
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And,are there no statues for the responsibles of the Portadown and Kerry massacres ?
What massacres were there in Kerry?
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Old 23 Aug 17, 10:02
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
No Irish involved then ?
Post independence, no. Pre-independence yes; we were occupied and succumbed into the UK so we were part of it. We never made decisions or set policy, we just bled and died.
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Old 23 Aug 17, 10:08
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Why should he not have a statue in Belgium ? He did not murder people in Belgium .
Ok, so if someone from a country murders hundreds of thousands of people in another country it's okay to venerate them, just so long as they don't kill anyone at home?
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Old 23 Aug 17, 10:13
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There is in Dublin a statue of the nazi G.B. Shaw,who advocated the use of gaz chambers to exterminate those who are unfit to live .Why should one not remove this statue ?

Silly me : because he was a left winger .
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Old 23 Aug 17, 10:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
The figure 200,000 came from Parliamentary pampleteers in 1642. The figure 618,000 was an estimate by William Petty in 1665-1666.
Yes, the same ones I posted links about. They were discredited at the time and on multiple occasions since. This is a history forum.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
The vast majority of Irish people owned no property. The disposessed were land-owners who had rebelled against the Crown and had, as a result of their losing, their property taken from them and given (sold) to loyal subjects. This was normal practice everywhere, for a long, long time.
It was common to get rid of the Lord but not to remove every occupant of the farms and shops and villages and towns and force march them hundreds of miles to a barren and windswept place they had never seem, if they were lucky enough to survive the trip. The land may have been sold to the Planters but it certainly wasn't purchased from the previous owners or occupants.
I'm sure you are aware that title and ownership of land and tenancy agreements for peasants an small-holders wasn't as well codified in the 1600's as it is today so to say that the peasants didn't own the land they farmed is somewhat disingenuous.
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