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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus

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Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus Post-Soviet Russia and some neglected smaller neighbors.

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  #31  
Old 01 Sep 17, 15:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javaman View Post
Influence... The US/West does this with economic power by providing opportunities for former Soviet republics to grow their economies and benefit from capitalism, free market, free trade, etc.
And BTW why should I remind American citizens about their own government's policy:
https://www.ft.com/content/a5b15b14-...1-00144feabdc0
Madam Clinton words are quite clear. US would strive to prevent Russia from gaining influence in the region even through economical power and integration. Why such a course meant an inevitable collision with Russia is hardly needed to be explained.
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  #32  
Old 01 Sep 17, 16:00
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von Junzt von Junzt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny87kz View Post
Why do Eastern European countries have to choose between the West and Russia?
Why can't they steer a middle course between the two and do business how they see fit? You know, as independent countries? Only Russia seems to be playing this silly zero sum game.

You are completely wrong as it is the other way around. The European Union, wich has become a front for Germany, with France an increasingly junior partner, seeks to dominate all Eastern Europe, and with membership comes integration into NATO. The arrangement is that Germany is allowed to dominate Europe economically as long as it remains a protectorate and subservient to the US.

Europe and the US don't accept a no for an answer, so when Ukraine under Yanukovich rejected the EU association agreement as the Russian deal was better, Germany and the US overthrew the government with the Maidan coup and installed a fascist Junta.

EU should never have expanded into post-Soviet space. That's all German imperialism in action. Is not silly. Zero sum is what it is all about.

Russia has no problems with their neighbors being part of the European Union, it's the attached strings that matters.

The Baltic countries are irrelevant and useless to Russia, however, being used as beachheads for US forces makes them into a threat, and the same happens with Poland and Romania and Bulgaria. Russia has no interest nor means to subjugate those countries, the problem is that placing the antimissile system bases, there is placing a dagger against Russia throat as it threatens Russian nuclear deterrence and increases the risks of the US achieving nuclear supremacy or at the very least risk a nuclear war with Russia in the confidence of winning. Even the mere threat would be enough to make Russia capitulate to American hegemony or else face destruction.


This is the nightmare of those in Moscow, and now in Peking. That the American imperialists, not content with the status quo and the balance, seek nuclear supremacy, wich increases the odds of nuclear war, either by American overconfidence, or by increasing the likelihood of a Russian preemptive strike.

At the very least, by cancelling the nuclear deterrent, leaves Russia vulnerable to conventional invasion. And NATO encroachment in Russia's borders makes the prospects of that invasion much more dangerous.


The way out of this, is exactly as you suggest, European Union needs to be dissolved, cut back to its original Western members or at least reformed.

But the real problem is that NATO needs to be dissolved. It was ostensibly a defensive alliance against the threat of a Soviet invasion, wich was grossly overstated and in hindsight, was an imaginary fear by the 70s. It should have been dissolved in 1991.

Problem is American troops in Europe have become de facto occupation troops and a tool to pressure European policy. US troops do not provide security to Eastern Europe, by their mere presence at Russia borders they are both a threat to Russia and to the hosting countries. They, and in a broader sense, US hegemony policy, are the disruptive factor that prevents good relations between Russia and their neighbors.

Europe should look for its own interests and not be used as a battleground between USA and Russia. In fact, Europe has much more to gain from larger Eurasian integration and cooperation, wich includes Russia and China, than remain shackled to the overseas US empire wich is becoming less of a partner and more of an economic rival. US attempts at reviving the Cold War and driving a wedge between Europe and Russia are damaging to both.



From what I can see from the posts here, indoctrination is so ingrained in you that most of you probably will not understand or accept this. I will summarize it with the basics: It doesn't matter what you believe, I don't care wether you Americans believe to be God's chosen people and Putin is the antiChrist.

What matters is what those in the Kremlin believe and feel. They feel threatened and will react accordingly. If it weren't for nuclear weapons, the threshold for war would have been crossed already. In fact war is already raging in Ukraine, though it is for now a proxy war and Russia seeks to freeze the conflict to win time for completing the rearmament and engange the USA at a moment and time of her choosing. Meanwhile in Syria, Russia has fought back and is winning against American proxies.

Again, I emphasize arguments about justice and morality and the righteousness of their cause are irrelevant, irrespective on wich side you are. What matters is causality: actions have consequences. And US actions lead to inevitable confrontation with Russia. And any such confrontation runs the risk of nuclear escalation, in wich everybody losses.
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  #33  
Old 01 Sep 17, 16:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
You really should have done your homework on that. Ukraine's economy stagnated already at the time Russia still per your arguments had 'influence' over it.
Ukraine was badly hit in 2008 crisis under their pro-Western government. After election of Yanukovich it had some recovery in 2010 and 2011 and only stagnated in 2012-2013 while Ukraine pursued economical association with a European Union. After 2013 with American "opportunities" - you know it yourself. It's easily the poorest country in Europe. The point is that flirting with US doesn't guarantee anything good, and Belarus or Kazakhstan which were in a similar starting position but didn't broke off with Russia have been much more successful economically.
Quote:
The thing you are so desperately avoiding is that those 'US incursions' only occurred because of Russia's own actions had lead the countries in question to request for them.
Nope, US incursions started in 2003-2004 regardless of any Russian actions, simply because US leadership influenced by their neocon masterminds decided that they should do that.
Quote:
Are you saying that countries next to Russia must abide by Russian policies?
That's the most gross misunderstanding of a simple question in my life. Again: what good US gained from their policy in the former SU? What was a benefit for an ordinary American Joe?
As for neighbor countries. I don't think that they must something. However, empirical experience demonstrated that maintaining good relations with Russia was generally of more beneficial effect then hostility to it.
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  #34  
Old 01 Sep 17, 16:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
You are completely wrong as it is the other way around. The European Union, wich has become a front for Germany, with France an increasingly junior partner, seeks to dominate all Eastern Europe, and with membership comes integration into NATO. The arrangement is that Germany is allowed to dominate Europe economically as long as it remains a protectorate and subservient to the US.

Europe and the US don't accept a no for an answer, so when Ukraine under Yanukovich rejected the EU association agreement as the Russian deal was better, Germany and the US overthrew the government with the Maidan coup and installed a fascist Junta.

EU should never have expanded into post-Soviet space. That's all German imperialism in action. Is not silly. Zero sum is what it is all about.

Russia has no problems with their neighbors being part of the European Union, it's the attached strings that matters.

The Baltic countries are irrelevant and useless to Russia, however, being used as beachheads for US forces makes them into a threat, and the same happens with Poland and Romania and Bulgaria. Russia has no interest nor means to subjugate those countries, the problem is that placing the antimissile system bases, there is placing a dagger against Russia throat as it threatens Russian nuclear deterrence and increases the risks of the US achieving nuclear supremacy or at the very least risk a nuclear war with Russia in the confidence of winning. Even the mere threat would be enough to make Russia capitulate to American hegemony or else face destruction.


This is the nightmare of those in Moscow, and now in Peking. That the American imperialists, not content with the status quo and the balance, seek nuclear supremacy, wich increases the odds of nuclear war, either by American overconfidence, or by increasing the likelihood of a Russian preemptive strike.

At the very least, by cancelling the nuclear deterrent, leaves Russia vulnerable to conventional invasion. And NATO encroachment in Russia's borders makes the prospects of that invasion much more dangerous.


The way out of this, is exactly as you suggest, European Union needs to be dissolved, cut back to its original Western members or at least reformed.

But the real problem is that NATO needs to be dissolved. It was ostensibly a defensive alliance against the threat of a Soviet invasion, wich was grossly overstated and in hindsight, was an imaginary fear by the 70s. It should have been dissolved in 1991.

Problem is American troops in Europe have become de facto occupation troops and a tool to pressure European policy. US troops do not provide security to Eastern Europe, by their mere presence at Russia borders they are both a threat to Russia and to the hosting countries. They, and in a broader sense, US hegemony policy, are the disruptive factor that prevents good relations between Russia and their neighbors.

Europe should look for its own interests and not be used as a battleground between USA and Russia. In fact, Europe has much more to gain from larger Eurasian integration and cooperation, wich includes Russia and China, than remain shackled to the overseas US empire wich is becoming less of a partner and more of an economic rival. US attempts at reviving the Cold War and driving a wedge between Europe and Russia are damaging to both.



From what I can see from the posts here, indoctrination is so ingrained in you that most of you probably will not understand or accept this. I will summarize it with the basics: It doesn't matter what you believe, I don't care wether you Americans believe to be God's chosen people and Putin is the antiChrist.

What matters is what those in the Kremlin believe and feel. They feel threatened and will react accordingly. If it weren't for nuclear weapons, the threshold for war would have been crossed already. In fact war is already raging in Ukraine, though it is for now a proxy war and Russia seeks to freeze the conflict to win time for completing the rearmament and engange the USA at a moment and time of her choosing. Meanwhile in Syria, Russia has fought back and is winning against American proxies.

Again, I emphasize arguments about justice and morality and the righteousness of their cause are irrelevant, irrespective on wich side you are. What matters is causality: actions have consequences. And US actions lead to inevitable confrontation with Russia. And any such confrontation runs the risk of nuclear escalation, in wich everybody losses.
Listen buddy, I used to think Putin was a good leader and give Russia the benefit of the doubt, but the blatant land grab in the Crimea and stoking of civil war in the Ukraine changed that. It's sad really as I wish the 2 countries could work together. The world would be a better place if they did. But as long as Russians keep the paranoid delusion that the West is out get them, that won't happen. Especially as Putin seems intent on rebuilding the USSR. I don't blame the rest of Eastern Europe to try and seek protection in NATO. Their memories of being the "buffer zone" for Russia are much to recent.
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  #35  
Old 01 Sep 17, 17:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Ukraine was badly hit in 2008 crisis under their pro-Western government. After election of Yanukovich it had some recovery in 2010 and 2011 and only stagnated in 2012-2013 while Ukraine pursued economical association with a European Union. After 2013 with American "opportunities" - you know it yourself. It's easily the poorest country in Europe. The point is that flirting with US doesn't guarantee anything good, and Belarus or Kazakhstan which were in a similar starting position but didn't broke off with Russia have been much more successful economically.
Actually Ukrainian economy soared (relatively speaking) during the pro-Western government. Under Yanukovych it didn't really move anywhere. All that can be seen from publicly available records (like World Bank) so I'm not quite sure why you insist on lying about it. Besides you shouldn't forget the role Russia played in causing that economic slump in Ukraine. So your Russian fairy tale doesn't really pan out.
Quote:
Nope, US incursions started in 2003-2004 regardless of any Russian actions, simply because US leadership influenced by their neocon masterminds decided that they should do that.
Care to prove that? And also show how Russia (or its predecessor) had not interfered with those countries prior to that time.
Quote:
That's the most gross misunderstanding of a simple question in my life. Again: what good US gained from their policy in the former SU? What was a benefit for an ordinary American Joe?
The main point was to show you that the countries in question have their own will and demands - i.e. sovereignty. They are not just pawns for Russia to play with like you clearly seem to imagine according to what you have posted.
Quote:
As for neighbor countries. I don't think that they must something. However, empirical experience demonstrated that maintaining good relations with Russia was generally of more beneficial effect then hostility to it.
Problem is that Russia is not creating that with its own threats and actions. Like or not Russia comes across as the aggressor. Furthermore empirical evidence also points that agreeing with Russia will lead to countries being occupied, annexed or otherwise subjugated by Russians. It seems to be rather difficult for you to grasp the concept that 'good relations' does not equate with 'subservient'. In other words while countries might like to have good relations with Russia they are not going to sacrifice their sovereignty and act as Russia's buffer to achieve it. Which also means that the more Russia threatens and flexes its muscles the further away it is driving the neighboring countries.
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  #36  
Old 01 Sep 17, 17:24
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny87kz View Post
Listen buddy,
I am not your "buddy", I am not in friendly terms with somebody that writes the following.


Quote:
I used to think Putin was a good leader and give Russia the benefit of the doubt, but the blatant land grab in the Crimea and stoking of civil war in the Ukraine changed that.
FYI, I just returned from a vacation in Crimea, my wife is from there and I stayed for many months during several years before the war so I have firsthand knowledge of Ukraine and Crimea and what you just wrote is utter Western propaganda and totally dettached from reality.

Land grab? You all Americans and Westerners are just angry that a country could act and do as it pleases without you being able to do anything. The US fancies itself all powerful and it was a complete humilliation. Don't have the nerve to talk about land grab when the US wanted to drive out the Russian fleet from Crimea to turn it into a US base and control the Black Sea and further corner Russia. They had already submitted the tender for construction of barracks in Sevastopol.

FYI, Crimea was never Ukrainian and the land grab was done by the Ukraine when they annexed Crimea against the wishes of its population that chose to remain united to Russia when the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, and forcefully suppressed the Crimea government and removed its autonomy and the constitution they voted in 1994.

Crimea has been all these years under Ukrainian occupation, and they took the first chance they had to proclaim their independence. This time Russia was strong enough to protect them.

If you want the Crimeans to be Ukrainians, then you will have to kill them all.

And about stoking the civil war, do not have the nerve of telling me that.

Your government organized the Maidan coup that overthrew the legitimate democratically elected government. The US supported the unlected Maidan junta, and the junta started the war against the Eastern regions that rose in turn against the Maidan. No negotiations, no attempts at dialogue, to make a democratic Ukraine respectful of the rights of everyone. They sent the army to crush people who were exerting their right to rebellion against a bunch of usurpers. Protests was peaceful and non violent at first, but when Ukrainian soldiers started to shoot unarmed protesters in cold blood and roll over crowds with armored vehicles, and Ukrainian thugs burned raped and beat to them in the Odessa massacre then the people of Eastern Ukraine had no choice but to fight back. That's all taped in video if you want to see it.

You Americans started this war. You stoked it by not saying a word about the massacres perpetrated by the Nazi Ukrainians, you replaced the junta with a puppet dictator after a farcical election where opposition parties were not allowed to run, and their candidates were beaten and murdered. Your puppet Poroshenko started to bomb Donbass cities in indiscriminate attacks against city blocks and infrastructure killing thousands of civilians.

Rather than stoking the war, the Kremlin did not support the Donbass movement that wanted to rejoin Russia, for whatever reason, they abandoned the Novorussians to their fate, and it was only due to th Ukraine attrocities and their heroical resistance that under pressure of Russian public opinion the government sent food aid convoys, wich the West and the US hysterically tried to stop as it would prevent the victory of the Ukrainians through mass starvation.

The leaders of the rebellion were forced to resign as they had beaten all ukrainian attacks and were on the verge of launching their counteroffensive and the commander were replaced by local men more pliable to Moscow wishes. Rather than stoking the war, Russia put an stop to it, as the Novorussians had completely routed the Ukrainian army and were on the verge of retaking Mariupol, and brokered a ceasefire and the Minsk agreements that were incredibly generous to the criminal Ukrainian regime and a complete betrayal of the victory gained by the Novorussians.

Still, not content with this, the US has made every attempt to sabotage the implementation of the Minsk agreements. Every time Germany and France pressure Ukraine to fullfill the ceasefire and implement the provisions of the agreements, Poroshenko runs for help to Washington. Even after a second defeat in the winter of 2015 , the Ukrainian regime refuses to abide by the Minsk agreements or to even sit at the negotiating table with their opponents.

Even worse still, the US keeps adding fuel to the fire by financing Ukraine with loans. Without money the war would stop at that very instant. Now the US hwaks frustrated by the defeat in Syria, look to reopen the front in Ukraine, even if Obama regime abstained because the Ukrainian army was completely defeated and has no chances of winning the war. The only thing that prevents Ukraine collapse is the Kremlin will.

Only, you never will read that in the Western MSM, but those of us that have lived there, and know what's going on and have been living this war since the Maidan started do know.

I know it's really hard to realize that you are being lied to and brainwashed all the time, and to see the world turned upside down. But it can be done.

Quote:
It's sad really as I wish the 2 countries could work together.
That boat sailed a long time ago. I cannot speak for Russia, but the Russian people of Ukraine would love to see the American soldiers supporting their tormentors to die and suffer the same way they do.

I think any red blooded Russian hates the Americans now, after seeing thousands of their fellow Russians massacred in Ukraine. I can only imagine, from glimpses I get, how Russian military, from soldier to general, grit their teeth and clench their fists holding their anger while waiting for the order to be given to finally hit back at the Americans and their Nazi puppets in Ukraine.

Is just that the Russians in this forum are too polite and have mighty self control in order to not get banned to tell you.

Quote:
The world would be a better place if they did.
No, the world will be a better place the moment you Americans abandon your crazy imperial fantasies and withdraw your troops home.



Quote:
But as long as Russians keep the paranoid delusion that the West is out get them, that won't happen.
Well. The historical record shows that the US is indeed out to get them, as the quotes and the examples I posted show.

As long as the Americans keep thinking they are God's chosen people and they have the right to invade other countries to "liberate" them and impose their values and lifestyle on them, there will be no peace.

You have to wake up and realize the US of A is no exceptional, it's just another large fierce predatory animal, like all the empires that have preceded it, and guilty of mass slaughter and attrocities. The Soviet Union was an evil empire. That's what you Americans have become.


Quote:
Especially as Putin seems intent on rebuilding the USSR.
You say that as if it were a bad thing. Nothing like that, nor the Russian empire of old, just a loose economic association avoiding the mistakes of the European Union. Besides, if Germany was allowed to reunify, I ask always this question and never get an answer from Americans:

what is so terrible about the reunification of all the Russias? What's the problem with the people of Byelorussia and Ukraine having a democratic choice to rejoin Russia? Just like Crimea did.

Why the Baltic countries or Moldova cannot grant their Russian population independence so they can rejoin Russia? Just as those peoples had the right to be free from the USRR, why their Russian minorities can't have the same choice?


Quote:
I don't blame the rest of Eastern Europe to try and seek protection in NATO.
They don't get any protection. Bulgaria and Hungary are chafing to be on the wrong side and lamenting the choice they made. Poland does not want NATO protection, it wants the US as a sugar daddy.

Let's be clear about this, NATO means the US, because there's no way European countries are going to be dragged in a war against Russia.

The Baltics are just bait for Russia. But for Russia is just easier to ignore them. Break all economic ties and wait for them to die. Is even possible that in some years the population decline will alter the ethnic balance of their populations. When the Russian minority in Latvia or Estonia becomes 40% of the population their antiRussian orientation and discrimination will be untenable.

There's no need for Russia to invade the Baltics. They will come back begging on their knees once you have realized their folly.
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Last edited by von Junzt; 01 Sep 17 at 17:42..
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  #37  
Old 01 Sep 17, 17:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
You are completely wrong as it is the other way around. The European Union, wich has become a front for Germany, with France an increasingly junior partner, seeks to dominate all Eastern Europe, and with membership comes integration into NATO. The arrangement is that Germany is allowed to dominate Europe economically as long as it remains a protectorate and subservient to the US.
In other words you are utterly clueless as to how the EU works and why it is structured as it is. EU's structure is in place exactly to prevent any one country from using the EU for any purpose. It can not be done. Which is apparently to any one who actually has bothered to learn even the very basics as to how the EU works. You clearly have not.
Quote:
Europe and the US don't accept a no for an answer, so when Ukraine under Yanukovich rejected the EU association agreement as the Russian deal was better, Germany and the US overthrew the government with the Maidan coup and installed a fascist Junta.
More BS. The EU and USA both agreed on Yanukovych staying until early elections. Again something that can be readily found from published documents.
Quote:
The Baltic countries are irrelevant and useless to Russia, however, being used as beachheads for US forces makes them into a threat, and the same happens with Poland and Romania and Bulgaria. Russia has no interest nor means to subjugate those countries, the problem is that placing the antimissile system bases, there is placing a dagger against Russia throat as it threatens Russian nuclear deterrence and increases the risks of the US achieving nuclear supremacy or at the very least risk a nuclear war with Russia in the confidence of winning. Even the mere threat would be enough to make Russia capitulate to American hegemony or else face destruction.
So you are arguing that countries must not be able to defend themselves against Russia because this would be threat to Russia? Why aren't you arguing that Russia must not be allowed to defend itself? You do understand that unless you are using double standards that argument is of exact same value.
Quote:
At the very least, by cancelling the nuclear deterrent, leaves Russia vulnerable to conventional invasion. And NATO encroachment in Russia's borders makes the prospects of that invasion much more dangerous.
No it doesn't. NATO structure requires a consensus for any action outside of NATO charter. Only way for you to believe what you posted is if you do not know anything of NATO. Which doesn't really surprise either.
Quote:
The way out of this, is exactly as you suggest, European Union needs to be dissolved, cut back to its original Western members or at least reformed.
So you are arguing that countries which want to be long to the EU instead of being dominated by Russia may not do so because... ...of why exactly? Because it is not what Russia wants? Because it allows those countries to actually be sovereign instead of being Russia's puppets? Why?
Quote:
But the real problem is that NATO needs to be dissolved. It was ostensibly a defensive alliance against the threat of a Soviet invasion, wich was grossly overstated and in hindsight, was an imaginary fear by the 70s. It should have been dissolved in 1991.
Why should it be dissolved? Because it hinders Russia's efforts to undermine the sovereignty of its neighboring countries? Why exactly should it be dissolved?
Quote:
Problem is American troops in Europe have become de facto occupation troops and a tool to pressure European policy. US troops do not provide security to Eastern Europe, by their mere presence at Russia borders they are both a threat to Russia and to the hosting countries. They, and in a broader sense, US hegemony policy, are the disruptive factor that prevents good relations between Russia and their neighbors.
USA has already withdrawn just about all its forces from Europe. So they are not an occupation force of any kind. Nor could they be even if they wanted to. They are no other real function than to act as tripwires. Which only work in case Russia invades those NATO countries. If Russia does not intend to do that then there are no problems with the deployment of those meager forces. So are you arguing that troops need to go because Russia wants to invade? Or what exactly?
Quote:
Europe should look for its own interests and not be used as a battleground between USA and Russia. In fact, Europe has much more to gain from larger Eurasian integration and cooperation, wich includes Russia and China, than remain shackled to the overseas US empire wich is becoming less of a partner and more of an economic rival. US attempts at reviving the Cold War and driving a wedge between Europe and Russia are damaging to both.
After Russia gives up on Crimea, leaves Ukraine and Georgia and otherwise drops its threatening acts. Then we can discuss. You should notice that Russia itself has been the one creating the new Cold War. No one else.
Quote:
What matters is what those in the Kremlin believe and feel. They feel threatened and will react accordingly. If it weren't for nuclear weapons, the threshold for war would have been crossed already. In fact war is already raging in Ukraine, though it is for now a proxy war and Russia seeks to freeze the conflict to win time for completing the rearmament and engange the USA at a moment and time of her choosing.
So you are saying that Russia aims to attack USA. That is good to know.
Quote:
actions have consequences.
This is just about the sole thing you got right. You should finally notice and figure out that the countries moving away from Russia is the consequence of Russia's past actions (and those of its predecessor).
Quote:
And US actions lead to inevitable confrontation with Russia. And any such confrontation runs the risk of nuclear escalation, in wich everybody losses.
How exactly has that happened? So far only one country - Russia - has threatened with the use of nuclear weapons. You are very desperately trying to paint other countries as being threatening yet you remain oblivious to the fact that only Russia has threatened other countries with such force.
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  #38  
Old 01 Sep 17, 18:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
I am not your "buddy", I am not in friendly terms with somebody that writes the following.




FYI, I just returned from a vacation in Crimea, my wife is from there and I stayed for many months during several years before the war so I have firsthand knowledge of Ukraine and Crimea and what you just wrote is utter Western propaganda and totally dettached from reality.

Land grab? You all Americans and Westerners are just angry that a country could act and do as it pleases without you being able to do anything. The US fancies itself all powerful and it was a complete humilliation. Don't have the nerve to talk about land grab when the US wanted to drive out the Russian fleet from Crimea to turn it into a US base and control the Black Sea and further corner Russia. They had already submitted the tender for construction of barracks in Sevastopol.

FYI, Crimea was never Ukrainian and the land grab was done by the Ukraine when they annexed Crimea against the wishes of its population that chose to remain united to Russia when the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, and forcefully suppressed the Crimea government and removed its autonomy and the constitution they voted in 1994.

Crimea has been all these years under Ukrainian occupation, and they took the first chance they had to proclaim their independence. This time Russia was strong enough to protect them.

If you want the Crimeans to be Ukrainians, then you will have to kill them all.

And about stoking the civil war, do not have the nerve of telling me that.

Your government organized the Maidan coup that overthrew the legitimate democratically elected government. The US supported the unlected Maidan junta, and the junta started the war against the Eastern regions that rose in turn against the Maidan. No negotiations, no attempts at dialogue, to make a democratic Ukraine respectful of the rights of everyone. They sent the army to crush people who were exerting their right to rebellion against a bunch of usurpers. Protests was peaceful and non violent at first, but when Ukrainian soldiers started to shoot unarmed protesters in cold blood and roll over crowds with armored vehicles, and Ukrainian thugs burned raped and beat to them in the Odessa massacre then the people of Eastern Ukraine had no choice but to fight back. That's all taped in video if you want to see it.

You Americans started this war. You stoked it by not saying a word about the massacres perpetrated by the Nazi Ukrainians, you replaced the junta with a puppet dictator after a farcical election where opposition parties were not allowed to run, and their candidates were beaten and murdered. Your puppet Poroshenko started to bomb Donbass cities in indiscriminate attacks against city blocks and infrastructure killing thousands of civilians.

Rather than stoking the war, the Kremlin did not support the Donbass movement that wanted to rejoin Russia, for whatever reason, they abandoned the Novorussians to their fate, and it was only due to th Ukraine attrocities and their heroical resistance that under pressure of Russian public opinion the government sent food aid convoys, wich the West and the US hysterically tried to stop as it would prevent the victory of the Ukrainians through mass starvation.

The leaders of the rebellion were forced to resign as they had beaten all ukrainian attacks and were on the verge of launching their counteroffensive and the commander were replaced by local men more pliable to Moscow wishes. Rather than stoking the war, Russia put an stop to it, as the Novorussians had completely routed the Ukrainian army and were on the verge of retaking Mariupol, and brokered a ceasefire and the Minsk agreements that were incredibly generous to the criminal Ukrainian regime and a complete betrayal of the victory gained by the Novorussians.

Still, not content with this, the US has made every attempt to sabotage the implementation of the Minsk agreements. Every time Germany and France pressure Ukraine to fullfill the ceasefire and implement the provisions of the agreements, Poroshenko runs for help to Washington. Even after a second defeat in the winter of 2015 , the Ukrainian regime refuses to abide by the Minsk agreements or to even sit at the negotiating table with their opponents.

Even worse still, the US keeps adding fuel to the fire by financing Ukraine with loans. Without money the war would stop at that very instant. Now the US hwaks frustrated by the defeat in Syria, look to reopen the front in Ukraine, even if Obama regime abstained because the Ukrainian army was completely defeated and has no chances of winning the war. The only thing that prevents Ukraine collapse is the Kremlin will.

Only, you never will read that in the Western MSM, but those of us that have lived there, and know what's going on and have been living this war since the Maidan started do know.

I know it's really hard to realize that you are being lied to and brainwashed all the time, and to see the world turned upside down. But it can be done.



That boat sailed a long time ago. I cannot speak for Russia, but the Russian people of Ukraine would love to see the American soldiers supporting their tormentors to die and suffer the same way they do.

I think any red blooded Russian hates the Americans now, after seeing thousands of their fellow Russians massacred in Ukraine. I can only imagine, from glimpses I get, how Russian military, from soldier to general, grit their teeth and clench their fists holding their anger while waiting for the order to be given to finally hit back at the Americans and their Nazi puppets in Ukraine.

Is just that the Russians in this forum are too polite and have mighty self control in order to not get banned to tell you.



No, the world will be a better place the moment you Americans abandon your crazy imperial fantasies and withdraw your troops home.





Well. The historical record shows that the US is indeed out to get them, as the quotes and the examples I posted show.

As long as the Americans keep thinking they are God's chosen people and they have the right to invade other countries to "liberate" them and impose their values and lifestyle on them, there will be no peace.

You have to wake up and realize the US of A is no exceptional, it's just another large fierce predatory animal, like all the empires that have preceded it, and guilty of mass slaughter and attrocities. The Soviet Union was an evil empire. That's what you Americans have become.




You say that as if it were a bad thing. Nothing like that, nor the Russian empire of old, just a loose economic association avoiding the mistakes of the European Union. Besides, if Germany was allowed to reunify, I ask always this question and never get an answer from Americans:

what is so terrible about the reunification of all the Russias? What's the problem with the people of Byelorussia and Ukraine having a democratic choice to rejoin Russia? Just like Crimea did.

Why the Baltic countries or Moldova cannot grant their Russian population independence so they can rejoin Russia? Just as those peoples had the right to be free from the USRR, why their Russian minorities can't have the same choice?




They don't get any protection. Bulgaria and Hungary are chafing to be on the wrong side and lamenting the choice they made. Poland does not want NATO protection, it wants the US as a sugar daddy.

Let's be clear about this, NATO means the US, because there's no way European countries are going to be dragged in a war against Russia.

The Baltics are just bait for Russia. But for Russia is just easier to ignore them. Break all economic ties and wait for them to die. Is even possible that in some years the population decline will alter the ethnic balance of their populations. When the Russian minority in Latvia or Estonia becomes 40% of the population their antiRussian orientation and discrimination will be untenable.

There's no need for Russia to invade the Baltics. They will come back begging on their knees once you have realized their folly.

I am glad you don't speak for the Russian people.
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  #39  
Old 01 Sep 17, 20:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
At the very least, by cancelling the nuclear deterrent, leaves Russia vulnerable to conventional invasion. And NATO encroachment in Russia's borders makes the prospects of that invasion much more dangerous.
Russia's nuclear deterrent isn't cancelled and Russia has thousands of tactical nukes that could help it deal with a conventional invasion.
Russia is one of the two largest nuclear powers on the globe but is so damn insecure. Or rather feigns being so.
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  #40  
Old 05 Sep 17, 09:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
The point is that of all former Soviet republics Ukraine who was going the Western way turned to be the least successful, whereas those who didn't and retained relations with Russia developed quite well. You can browse data on the site to see stats on other republics. Actually Ukraine has been an economical looser before 2014. That was a key reason for their economical turmoil after all.

Again, browse the stats. Eastern Europe had a solid economical growth but not more impressive generally than Russia or those countries in the Russian zone.
You tried to put the Ukraine out there as if it was the only example of a former Soviet Republic that was struggling and it was due to choosing western backing instead of Russian. Now you're moving the goal posts.

See below so you don't forget what you wrote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Another neocon myth and my favorite one:
GDP per capita, USA:
Belarus - 5400 in 1990, 18 060 in 2016
Ukraine - 6730 in 1990, 8300 in 2016
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD
As you can see Russian influence turned out to be more beneficial for economy then US "opportunities". I have nor doubts that Ukraine would be better off if choosing pro-Russian orientation instead of doing what they did.
I guess forget the fact the Russians are sponsoring a war within the Ukraine, and meddling in their internal affairs right?

Quote:
The page wants my bank card. Don't read too much some garbage sites, is my advice to you in general.
That is nothing short of a stupid, moronic presumptuous statement.... You assume I read that page rather than simply google a topic and provide a link as an example. You have such intuition!

Quote:
Clearly you don't know much about the former Soviet Union. In Georgia president Shevarnadze has been in quite bad relations with Russia for many years. His favorite habit was telling about Russian plots to assassinate him. In Ukraine president Kuchma pursued a typical Ukrainian "servant of two masters" policy flirting with both Russia and the West. And he wasn't overthrown. He didn't go to the next elections, and the race was between other men including those more pro-Russian and pro-Western. The positive sign though is that you admit that US policy was directed against Russia already in 2004.
Many decades of the same old accusations and hollow statements, but this time its legit! -denied-

Quote:
He-he.
I still don't see any benefits for America.
From your own link earlier: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...D?locations=RU

US/EU policies are hurting the Russian economy at home and abroad as a result of their foreign policies, the Russians are trying to increase military spending and rearm a military relying on mostly old equipment on a limited budget. How much is that Syrian expedition worth? Ukrainian separatist movement? Huge troop movements around the Baltics and Poland? No benefit here for the US. (he....he....)
The US bankrupted the Soviets the same way.
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  #41  
Old 05 Sep 17, 15:08
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You know, this time, unlike in 1998, we won't pay off Russia's debts, we will just let the country crash and burn.

Russia will collapse in 15 years. Early money already called it.
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  #42  
Old 05 Sep 17, 15:57
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Ehm, I see that you are moving to some ad-hominem type of arguments without providing anything on the substance. So just several points regarding the last part:
1. Russia's economical recession in 2015-2016 was first and foremost due to oil prices and then partly a logical continuation of a slowdown that started already before that. Western sanctions were a factor of a secondary importance.
2. In 2017 up to this point the Russian economy was growing. By all expectations a moderate growth will continue in the future months and years.
3. Russian military budget is not that limited, it's the third or fourth in the world actually. Still the planned expenditure in 2017 are considerably smaller than in 2015 or 2016, and in 2018 and 2019 they are planned to stay on the same level. So in reality a certain decrease in military spending right now.
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  #43  
Old 05 Sep 17, 22:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
Meh, I see no compelling reason to attack Russia. Anyone who does is insane and should be treated as such...
Same here. In a way, it is strange, in another way it is low comedy.

After 100 years, the Left is now seeing Russian the same way the Right always used to ... and all it took was one botched election?

Seriously?

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  #44  
Old 05 Sep 17, 23:57
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Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Seems very US centric.

America this, America that, seems to me "America" doesn't know its head from it's arse these days, they're hardly fit for a cross continental invasion.
Penis envy rears its ugly head....(pun intended)
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  #45  
Old 05 Sep 17, 23:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire66 View Post
You know, this time, unlike in 1998, we won't pay off Russia's debts, we will just let the country crash and burn.

Russia will collapse in 15 years. Early money already called it.
They will again spend themselves under the table.
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