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  #61  
Old 22 Aug 17, 21:45
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Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
A couple other events happened that weren't widely reported.

The Antietam ran aground while anchored in Japan in January. The Lake Champlain collided with a South Korean Fishing boat in March.
Looks like the first one to be sacked is head of the 7th Fleet:

WASHINGTON -- The head of U.S. Forces Pacific is preparing to sack the head of the three-star U.S. 7th Fleet after a string of mishaps among the Japan-based ships that have rocked the Navy to its core.

Adm. Scott Swift is traveling to Japan and plans to remove Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin for a loss of confidence in is leadership there, two U.S. officials confirmed.



Wall Street Journal first reported the pending firing.

http://www.defensenews.com/breaking-...-of-incidents/
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  #62  
Old 22 Aug 17, 23:25
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
If someone can break into industrial controllers in Iran remotely (aka Stuxnet) and can remotely access and control a car's systems, then it's entirely possible someone could get into commercial shipping navigation systems.
Sure but you shouldn't forget that Stuxnet for example was initially spread to the target machines via physical access. And it hit practically all vulnerable systems across the globe instead of just the ones actually assumed to have been its target.
Quote:
It's easy to get copies of the software. You can buy them on the internet. All you'd need to know is which package the ship you're targeting is using. You can bet few commercial marine shipping companies have paid much attention to making their software for navigation and such secure as there hasn't been any publicized attacks or hacks of it.

"commercial navigation software marine" gets you lots of different commercial grade and small craft choices. Again, you'd only need to know what the ship you're targeting is using and have a means to gain remote access. Not overly hard in either case.
Hacking computer based commercial navigation software is more like it. After all unlike GPS and AIS systems computer based navigation software needs to receive periodic updates. Then again those are handled by local computers typically separated by an air gap from everything else so both attacks and updates would require physical access. Not to mention that timed attacks would require some level of clairvoyance or precognition because of the air gap. Which in other words means that it is route for a blackmailer or some such, not so much for a person wanting to cause a collision.
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  #63  
Old 23 Aug 17, 07:11
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Ultimately, it doesn't matter if the tanker was hacked, or if the Captain and entire watch crew were jihadists screaming Allahu Ackbar as they careened into the McCain.

As far as it's concerned outside of commercial and insurance purposes, the fault is with the McCain.

A 35kt destroyer with all of its watchstanders, electronics, and such being struck by a tanker is unconscionable. It's the equivalent of driving a sports car on a large parking lot and being struck by a station wagon governed at 35. For pete's sake we were fighting entire battles at night, dodging torpedo salvoes and engaging with torpedoes and guns 75 years ago when it was the Mk1 Eyeball looking through binos and a radar screen that basically said "blob over thataway, might be something".

To me there is only one response, and it's a twofold response that MUST happen:

1) The entire chain of command should be relieved for cause. From the Watch Officer, Chief of the bridge section, to the XO and CO of the McCain. Then you relieve the Division commander (Not sure if Destroyers are in divisions or squadrons these days, I'm a Marine not a squid), whoever in fleet is in charge of training, and the fleet commander. Additionally back at the Pentagon, whoever is in charge of training programs should also be relieved for cause. I would support Mattis or even the President doing this if the Admirals will not, and then relieving said Admiral as well if he does not. 2 easily avoidable deadly incidents with massive property damage and IIRC ~20 dead sailors is a failure to train, failure to supervise training, and failure of leadership. The Navy needs to express in no uncertain terms that if you let basic seamanship skills and actual readiness slip, you SHALL have your career summarily trashed without exception.

2) The Navy needs to accept fault as well for a failure to both teach sailors to a high standard and hold them to said high standard. The response to this should be far more rigorous training programs and testing for watchstanders. We need a return of professionalism for the Navy. Making Chief shouldn't involve ANY community service. It should involve demonstrated leadership ability as noted in reports, and both demonstrated and tested competency at the various skills within their rate. There should also be a requirement for them having held position as a Lead Petty Officer (IIRC this is the proper leadership billet under Chief) and a minimum time in grade as a PO1. And finally, the XO and Chiefs on a ship should be held responsible for the training of the sailors onboard, and their ability to make Senior or Master Chief, or be CO of their own ship will hinge on the abilities and readiness of the sailors that learned under them.
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  #64  
Old 23 Aug 17, 07:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Ultimately, it doesn't matter if the tanker was hacked, or if the Captain and entire watch crew were jihadists screaming Allahu Ackbar as they careened into the McCain.

As far as it's concerned outside of commercial and insurance purposes, the fault is with the McCain.

A 35kt destroyer with all of its watchstanders, electronics, and such being struck by a tanker is unconscionable. It's the equivalent of driving a sports car on a large parking lot and being struck by a station wagon governed at 35. For pete's sake we were fighting entire battles at night, dodging torpedo salvoes and engaging with torpedoes and guns 75 years ago when it was the Mk1 Eyeball looking through binos and a radar screen that basically said "blob over thataway, might be something".

To me there is only one response, and it's a twofold response that MUST happen:

1) The entire chain of command should be relieved for cause. From the Watch Officer, Chief of the bridge section, to the XO and CO of the McCain. Then you relieve the Division commander (Not sure if Destroyers are in divisions or squadrons these days, I'm a Marine not a squid), whoever in fleet is in charge of training, and the fleet commander. Additionally back at the Pentagon, whoever is in charge of training programs should also be relieved for cause. I would support Mattis or even the President doing this if the Admirals will not, and then relieving said Admiral as well if he does not. 2 easily avoidable deadly incidents with massive property damage and IIRC ~20 dead sailors is a failure to train, failure to supervise training, and failure of leadership. The Navy needs to express in no uncertain terms that if you let basic seamanship skills and actual readiness slip, you SHALL have your career summarily trashed without exception.

2) The Navy needs to accept fault as well for a failure to both teach sailors to a high standard and hold them to said high standard. The response to this should be far more rigorous training programs and testing for watchstanders. We need a return of professionalism for the Navy. Making Chief shouldn't involve ANY community service. It should involve demonstrated leadership ability as noted in reports, and both demonstrated and tested competency at the various skills within their rate. There should also be a requirement for them having held position as a Lead Petty Officer (IIRC this is the proper leadership billet under Chief) and a minimum time in grade as a PO1. And finally, the XO and Chiefs on a ship should be held responsible for the training of the sailors onboard, and their ability to make Senior or Master Chief, or be CO of their own ship will hinge on the abilities and readiness of the sailors that learned under them.
I suspect that you are correct Tac. I did three years, one month and two days on a Burke class DDG as a CIC watch-stander and watch supervisor. I fail to understand how a ship like that could have a collision period. The ship I was on did 22 knots at zero dark thirty off the coast of Korea without ever striking one of those ubiquitous and ever present Korean squid boats. The only answers that I can come up with are what I have already outlined in my previous posts.
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  #65  
Old 23 Aug 17, 08:41
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Training problems

From the USNI website

Quote:
Chain of Incidents Involving U.S. Navy Warships in the Western Pacific Raise Readiness, Training Questions


https://news.usni.org/2017/08/21/cha...ning-questions
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  #66  
Old 23 Aug 17, 10:09
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Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
8 years of community organizing, feel good, PC, everyone's a winner, and 16 years of no idiot left behind is finally coming home to roost.
Yeah, it's hard to follow up on the Eight of Hate, isn't it?
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  #67  
Old 23 Aug 17, 10:46
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Its a bloody big ocean yet you guys (USN)keeps running into other ships....is this the same technology as driver less cars ??

Toulon France
More like passenger jets...
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  #68  
Old 23 Aug 17, 10:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bow View Post
Its a bloody big ocean yet you guys (USN)keeps running into other ships....is this the same technology as driver less cars ??

Toulon France
Unfortunately even bloody big oceans have some very congested sea lanes like the Malacca Straits where the incident took place and which has been notorious for collisions.
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Old 23 Aug 17, 12:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Unfortunately even bloody big oceans have some very congested sea lanes like the Malacca Straits where the incident took place and which has been notorious for collisions.
Exactly! I have sailed those straits on numerous occasions and I have often compared them to the Washington DC Beltway at rush hour; radars cannot achieve landfall because there are so many ship riding at anchor on both sides of the straits.
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Old 23 Aug 17, 17:05
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Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
Exactly! I have sailed those straits on numerous occasions and I have often compared them to the Washington DC Beltway at rush hour; radars cannot achieve landfall because there are so many ship riding at anchor on both sides of the straits.
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Unfortunately even bloody big oceans have some very congested sea lanes like the Malacca Straits where the incident took place and which has been notorious for collisions.
Good points, I'm still flabbergasted though. This is the navy that won at Manila Bay, Santiago de Cuba, Midway and Leyte Gulf? Providing support in Korea and Vietnam? Plus good work sailing under the North Pole for the first time, picking up the astronauts...

Not the same navy...

Prayers for the sailors who lost their lives.
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Old 23 Aug 17, 23:16
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It is unfathomable to me, with all the tools and resources available today that a state of the art US ship(s) can have so many incidents.
The blame rest squarely on the US Navy, and they better get themselves squared away ASAP.
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Last edited by Urban hermit; 23 Aug 17 at 23:23..
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Old 24 Aug 17, 05:06
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Remarkably, a Belgian commercial ship captain was being interviewed a few days ago,

even though it was not the main subject, she was questioned on her opinion as to what could explain the recent collisions by a ship the size of hers and a much smaller warship, she replied rather dry.

"An American warship."

Seems your ship commanders/navigators have a very bad reputation out there...
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Old 24 Aug 17, 07:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
Exactly! I have sailed those straits on numerous occasions and I have often compared them to the Washington DC Beltway at rush hour; radars cannot achieve landfall because there are so many ship riding at anchor on both sides of the straits.
not as congested as map in post # 11--and not many collisions there
why not?
2 fleets steaming right at each other
thanks all replies
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Old 24 Aug 17, 08:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuebor View Post
Another Seventh Fleet unit? Maybe this investigation will look higher up the chain of command than Captain of the ship.

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Old 24 Aug 17, 09:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
not as congested as map in post # 11--and not many collisions there
why not?
2 fleets steaming right at each other
thanks all replies
The Malacca strait is the most congested sea lane in the world - day in day out 24/7 and far more congested (see photo in link, note how at least one tanker is steaming across the shipping lane. Now imagine it at night)

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/09/77/97/0...ane-window.jpg
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