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  #46  
Old 22 Aug 17, 09:19
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Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
I would not go that far and the results of the investigation are not out yet and won't be for a while. What I do know for a fact is that the McCain was struck on the port side. That means that McCain was the stand on vessel; for you landlubbers that means that she had the right of way and did not have to maneuver. Other than that it appears that she lost steering prior to the collision. We shall see what is discovered but I will caution in the strongest possible terms against giving any credibility to tin foil hat conspiracy theories.

From last night's texting with the Ensign...."They are trying to say that the bridge watch standers are under trained"
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  #47  
Old 22 Aug 17, 09:44
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From last night's texting with the Ensign...."They are trying to say that the bridge watch standers are under trained"
From my personal experience, as I still deal with the Navy on a regular basis, I would believe that is probably an accurate assessment. What I do know for a fact as a retired OSC, as someone that is part of the training pipeline, and as someone that as operated with the U.S. Navy underway onboard MSC ships is that the Operations Specialists are seriously under trained. Seventeen weeks of "A" school with live active duty instructors has been replaced with six weeks of computer based training run by contractors; what could possibly go wrong?
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  #48  
Old 22 Aug 17, 09:57
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What is the situation of the US 7th fleet?

I mean reading from what has been posted online it kinda spells out like a 'cesspit'. Then again it is doubtful that all of that would be true. Low morale (liberty policy), ships being at sea 3/4 of time (which is fine by the ship, but not so much for the crew if liberty/shore leave is in Japan...), crews overextended, crews exhausted, top brass in corruption scandals...

Then again it could just have been a technical malfunction which disabled ship's steering just prior to collision (like some sources report).
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Old 22 Aug 17, 10:27
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What is the situation of the US 7th fleet?

I mean reading from what has been posted online it kinda spells out like a 'cesspit'. Then again it is doubtful that all of that would be true. Low morale (liberty policy), ships being at sea 3/4 of time (which is fine by the ship, but not so much for the crew if liberty/shore leave is in Japan...), crews overextended, crews exhausted, top brass in corruption scandals...

Then again it could just have been a technical malfunction which disabled ship's steering just prior to collision (like some sources report).
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  #50  
Old 22 Aug 17, 12:11
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What is the situation of the US 7th fleet?

I mean reading from what has been posted online it kinda spells out like a 'cesspit'. Then again it is doubtful that all of that would be true. Low morale (liberty policy), ships being at sea 3/4 of time (which is fine by the ship, but not so much for the crew if liberty/shore leave is in Japan...), crews overextended, crews exhausted, top brass in corruption scandals...

Then again it could just have been a technical malfunction which disabled ship's steering just prior to collision (like some sources report).
As a former 7th Fleet Sailor I can attest to onerous amount of time that those ships are underway. They do not call duty in Japan "permanent Westpac" for nothing, those ships are underway far more than their CONUS counterparts. Back when I was a junior Petty Officer, the quid pro quo was the liberty and the ports. We went to Australia, the Philippines and Thailand on a regular basis and we were there we were not expected to be on the ship unless it was our duty day. The policy was the same in homeport, if it was not your duty day once you were done with your daily assignments you were expected to get off the ship. Then "Big Navy" decided to send East Coast officers to Japan with their Lant Fleet culture.....and things started going downhill fast. Couple that with the zero defect mentality that has become so pervasive and duty in Japan these days is less than desirable. The again, looking at the modern Navy makes me glad that I am retired almost everyday.
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  #51  
Old 22 Aug 17, 12:44
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An interesting note in this is that both the Fitzgerald and McCain are in the same DesRon (15) out of Yokosuka Japan. The loss, in terms of having to be repaired, has severely reduced the USN's capability to engage in theater ballistic missile defense.

Also, with both ships out of the same DesRon, I would think somebody needs to start looking at the higher command and see if the failure(s) started there.
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  #52  
Old 22 Aug 17, 13:51
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As a result of economic pressures many shipping companies have stopped employing crew from nations with a seafaring tradition and increasingly employed crews from nations where wage expectations are lower. At the same time training has been pared back drastically (where there is any training). Crew sizes have been chopped back - relying on automation - so that examples of ships that once had a crew of 16 and now have 6 are not unusual and hours worked on board have gone up. It is not difficult to find examples of the sort of thing described in this extract from a maritime safety investigation into an incident with a similar tanker.

Quote:
While the ship was in Wellington harbour, extra work was created by the need to change berths before discharging was completed. On leaving Wellington, the ship ran into heavy seas. The 0200 hours position of the ship was misread and wrongly plotted on the chart by the 2nd Officer, who had been on duty for 11 hours in the previous 24-hour period; he did not check the position independently. On the next watch, the 1st Officer perpetuated this mistake every half hour for the next four hours; he did not check the position independently. The 1st Officer had been suffering from tonsillitis for the past year. An operation to remove his tonsils had been scheduled for the previous week, but it had been postponed because the tanker company was unable to find anyone to relieve him. In the 24-hour period prior to the incident, the 1st Officer had been on duty for 15 hours. The day before that he had been on duty for 12 and a half hours out of the 24. The officer on the next watch obtained a radar echo of land on the starboard side of the ship and brought it to the attention of the master, who altered course. In an interview immediately after the incident the 1st Officer said that he “was tired and the watch seemed like being in a fog”.
Add to this sort of thing the fact that USN ships usually adopt an electronic stealth approach blocking or obscuring their position and identity (not unlike a 20th century skipper switching off his navigation lights), the site of the incident was in the Malacca Straits - the most congested seaway in the world - and in darkness and one really has to be a hyper conspiracy theory nut job to start seeking some sinister plot behind it. The surprise is that it hasn't happened more often.

It's somewhat akin to driving down a major highway without lights and being surprised when a trucker driving well over his time limit and high on amphetamines wanders over into your lane and hits you.
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  #53  
Old 22 Aug 17, 14:03
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Here's a question that I saw on another forum---can the navigation system on a ship be remotely hacked?
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  #54  
Old 22 Aug 17, 14:20
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Almost certainly. It wouldn't be easy but I have no doubt it could be done. First, you have that AICS tracking system, which that ship had. That is a data link to outside systems. That gives you a point of egress into the ship's navigation system since the later has to be tied to the former.

Then, all you'd need to know is the language the navigation system is programmed in and have the ability to hack through any security, if there is any and its very possible there's little or none like most industrial control systems have, to get at the software.

It could also likely be hacked prior to leaving port directly by someone physically accessing the system.
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Old 22 Aug 17, 14:39
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Here's a question that I saw on another forum---can the navigation system on a ship be remotely hacked?
The military GPS have had selective availability anti spoofing modules since 2002. Very difficult to mess with those, TAG already covered the AICS.

The problem with electronic navigation tools is that they have pretty much become the primary nav choice. Sometimes they have humans running check boards but more likely not.

Used to be the primary nav was human, electronic was run as a check.
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Old 22 Aug 17, 14:39
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Almost certainly. It wouldn't be easy but I have no doubt it could be done. First, you have that AICS tracking system, which that ship had. That is a data link to outside systems. That gives you a point of egress into the ship's navigation system since the later has to be tied to the former.

Then, all you'd need to know is the language the navigation system is programmed in and have the ability to hack through any security, if there is any and its very possible there's little or none like most industrial control systems have, to get at the software.

It could also likely be hacked prior to leaving port directly by someone physically accessing the system.
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Old 22 Aug 17, 14:40
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Here's a question that I saw on another forum---can the navigation system on a ship be remotely hacked?
Possibly on a merchantman but unlikely on a sophisticated warship.
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Old 22 Aug 17, 15:27
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Possibly on a merchantman but unlikely on a sophisticated warship.
If even that. Lack of sophistication also makes such a sophisticated 'attack' much less likely to succeed.

Hacking individual navigation aids might be possible - but rather unlikely and in fact quite improbable (in the sense of actual hacking). Remotely that is. If some one would physically get access to the systems that is a different story of course. However it is more likely that the preferred avenue would be just to feed the systems in question with false information - as can be done with GPS and also with AIS. In which case it would regardless affect all ships in the area of the EW effort, and not just the 'target'.

Things will be different when the fully automated ships start getting into the shipping lanes.
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Old 22 Aug 17, 16:24
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However it is more likely that the preferred avenue would be just to feed the systems in question with false information - as can be done with GPS
Military GPS receivers have had SAASM since 2002, feeding false information to those receivers wouldn't work.
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Old 22 Aug 17, 16:37
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Whoo whoo put on tinfoil hat put on tin foil hat1
If someone can break into industrial controllers in Iran remotely (aka Stuxnet) and can remotely access and control a car's systems, then it's entirely possible someone could get into commercial shipping navigation systems.

It's easy to get copies of the software. You can buy them on the internet. All you'd need to know is which package the ship you're targeting is using. You can bet few commercial marine shipping companies have paid much attention to making their software for navigation and such secure as there hasn't been any publicized attacks or hacks of it.

"commercial navigation software marine" gets you lots of different commercial grade and small craft choices. Again, you'd only need to know what the ship you're targeting is using and have a means to gain remote access. Not overly hard in either case.

You need to take the blinders off.

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