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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Spanish Civil War

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Spanish Civil War This forum is for discussion of the Spanish Civil War. , this sub-forum appears in the World War II section because Spain was both a training ground for and preview of what was about to break loose in Europe.

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  #1  
Old 20 Aug 17, 11:38
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Franco Foundation

Has anyone seen this petition to make organizations like the Franco foundation illegal? They want to shut them down because they promote a positive perspective of Franco's regime.

https://www.change.org/p/a-los-grupo...gn=autopublish

I don't know much about the Franco foundation, but according to this article, it is promoting hate and attacking the dignity of the victims.
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  #2  
Old 21 Aug 17, 14:17
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Rabid leftists with nothing to do. There is freedom of expression and because Franco wo n the war is no illegal at all to be a Franco supporter , or Lincoln or Lenin is all the same.

This is just another attempt to rewrite history
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  #3  
Old 21 Aug 17, 19:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Junzt View Post
Rabid leftists with nothing to do. There is freedom of expression and because Franco wo n the war is no illegal at all to be a Franco supporter , or Lincoln or Lenin is all the same.

This is just another attempt to rewrite history
Franco was a brutal dictator, and the only reason there wasn't a second civil war at his death was because Nationalists recognised Juan Carlos as his appointed successor, while everyone else could live with a grandson of Alphonso XIII on the throne, as long as they could have a constitution.

Try telling the Basques or the Catalans what a great man Franco was. Anybody not living in Spain was in fits when he decided that he was King.
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  #4  
Old 22 Aug 17, 03:42
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A personal attack from Von Junzt was deleted. Further posts of this type will be deleted on sight and further action requested. This is your final warning.
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Last edited by CarpeDiem; 22 Aug 17 at 07:05..
  #5  
Old 28 Aug 17, 09:23
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I had not seen either information about the Foundation or the plea to make it illegal.

While obviously such an organization is despicable and, fortunately, no more than a piece of rubbish in the scrapheap of history, I disagree, on principle, on shutting anybody's mouth.
At least, not until these scumbags begin with hate speech or incitement and encouragement to commit crimes, which would be against existing laws and should be prosecuted with the appropriate severity.
OTOH What the Spaniards should do straight away, if it's true that the foundation keeps its subsidizers a secret and that that is against the law, is of course to prosecute these old Fascists for that.
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  #6  
Old 30 Aug 17, 06:26
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Hi there, von Junzt,

I have deleted this post because members are required to use the proper channels if they wish to question, or appeal against, a Staff action.
(This should not happen in open forum.)

I will shortly be sending you a message explaining why the previous Staff action was taken. I hope and trust that you will understand.

Regards,
panther3485

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Last edited by panther3485; 30 Aug 17 at 08:43.. Reason: deletion due to infraction of forum rules
  #7  
Old 30 Aug 17, 06:44
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This wasn't, "Leftist Propaganda," but a dissection of Franco's rule and its aftermath by people who were far enough away to make an objective analysis.

Franco lived until 1975 because he kept out of WW2, which led to Mussolini's execution, and Hitler's suicide.

You have a perfect right to support Franco, just as Americans can support Trump, but you have to realise that there's an alternative viewpoint.

FFS ! I've never denied that I'm a Socialist, or that I think Nicola Sturgeon is one of the best things to happen to the office of First Minister, but I accept that those views are not universal (in the latter case, I'd be severely worried if they were).
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  #8  
Old 30 Aug 17, 07:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post
This wasn't, "Leftist Propaganda," but a dissection of Franco's rule and its aftermath by people who were far enough away to make an objective analysis.
You know Spanish ? You need to be able to read both sides and primary sources and then make up your mind. Else, your knowledge and opinion is as unsourced and biased as Western perceptions of Soviet Russia. Because foreign literature and historiography is not so much overwhelmingly biased against Nationalists as ignorant of Spanish realities, wich dovetails with a general ignorance and hostility towards Spain in general dating back centuries.



Quote:
You have a perfect right to support Franco, just as Americans can support Trump, but you have to realise that there's an alternative viewpoint.
You are making a false assumption, that I support Franco, and your alternative viewpoint is hopelessly wrong because is based on false assumptions.

No one would make such bold and outrageous claims as all of you have done in this thread in such a short space if they knew better.

Ignorance is bold. You can only make such sweeping statements with a very limited and biased knowledge. Any serious student of history knows that history is much more complex and things aren't clearly cut out in a black and white morality.


Quote:
FFS ! I've never denied that I'm a Socialist,
Then sorry, but that automatically casts doubts in your objectivity and impartiality, as you are bound to see Franco and the nationalists on a negative light.

Unlike me, who through much reading and analysis try to make an objective assesment, irrespective or my political and philosophical leanings. I do think the Nationalist cause was better than the alternative, but that doesn't prevent me from being honest and accept the Red cause had its merits.

I have been able to overcome my leanings and antiCommunist education to get a positive view of Soviet Russia. I lament that the Whites lost the civilian war and the crimes of the Bolsheviks and later Stalin, but grudgingly I have to accept not everything Communist was bad.

Who hit the report button? It was you or just the moderator being overzeaolus?
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  #9  
Old 30 Aug 17, 12:58
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barca View Post
Has anyone seen this petition to make organizations like the Franco foundation illegal? They want to shut them down because they promote a positive perspective of Franco's regime.
You say that as if it were a bad thing


I am only addressing this point and I am out of there.

Foundation Franco is a private, non profit foundation,, a historical society and custodian of Franco private archive and other papers.


As such its existence and activity are guaranteed by the spanish Constitution , under fundamental rights also extant in all democratic countries, to name the specific ones

Article 22.

Right to association

point 4. Associations can only be dissolved or suspended in its activities as a consequence of a motivated court resolution


Article 34

The right of foundation for general interest purposes, in accordance with the law


in addition to the general rights of of freedom of ideology ( art 16), among others, and freedom of expression,

Art 20
rights to express and spread freeely the thoughts, ideas, and views through speech, written form or any other means of reproduction.


So there's nothing illegal or out of ordinary in its activities. As any other foundation it is eligible and can apply for state grants , it received a couple grants a decade ago, and there is nothing wrong with that. After all the various socialists governments have been lavish in bestowing public money on lots of like minded societies in order to win votes.

https://www.change.org/p/a-los-grupo...gn=autopublish

Quote:
I don't know much about the Franco foundation, but according to this article, it is promoting hate and attacking the dignity of the victims.
So you know nothing, like the other posters, but that does not prevent you from knowing the truth and having an absolutely correct opinion. Right.




My father is subscribed to the newsletter of the Foundation, I have read a few newsletters and there's nothing of the sort in it.

The Foundation work is about keeping the memory, achievements and contributions of Franco to Spain. It's a historical society, not affiliated to any political party and does not have any political activities.

It's not illegal to be a Franco supporter anymore that it is to be a Lincoln supporter.

Unless you want to rewrite history and live in an Orwellian nightmare. I think the other posters.


Of course the Foundation has a bias and glosses over the negative aspects of Franco regime, but to call them "despicable", "scumbags" and "Fascists" like somebody in my ignore list does above, is such a display of hate and intolerance that fully disqualifies the poster, who in his infinite arrogance dares to say what the Spaniards should do. Because he says so.




That is indeed hate speech. And that's against the law. It probably is against forum rules as well, but I am not so thin skinned as to report him for that.

And you know, though I have had my clashes with the OP and the other poster, I think it's still possible to have a civil debate with them and enlighten them about the matter, or at least the existence of an alternate view point, if they wished. But with somebody so full of hate and venom, I know he would be glad like his ilk, to have me in front of a firing squad. I don't know what bugs him, but please, stay away from Spain's history.

If people dropped their ideological sunglasses and looked at historical facts in an objective balanced way, they might come around to the shocking conclusion that all things considered Franco was not that bad, or he was a lesser evil, and the ones that should be prosecuted by "promoting hate and attacking the dignity of the victims" should be the leftists and "antifascists". At the very least, two wrongs do not make a right.

But people of the leftist ideology will never acknowledge that. Franco is hated and reviled so much, because in Spain Marxist ideology was defeated and that is a insufferable exception to the dogma of the inevitability and final triumph of Marxism revolution. They have never forgiven Franco nor Spain for that.

It should not have come as a surprise, after all, Spain is the only place where Islam was beaten and forced back . It was the Christian essence of Spain, the core values and national identity that enabled the country to resist against the revolutionary ideology of the French invaders under Napoleon, and the followers of Lenin in the civil war.


Here's the press release of the Foundation regarding the petition to ilegalize it. Use google translate or learn Spanish. Since probably you are too lazy to do that or even bother to read my message, or to read it entirely, since it's a rebuttal of the total baseless attacks, I will translate and copypaste the last paragraph, bold is mine


http://www.fnff.es/Comunicado_La_pet...NFF_3677_c.htm..


The defense of the FNFF is, today, a civic obligation, above ideological discrepancies or political sympathies. It is the touchstone of respect for the law and historical research of Spanish society. It is key to allow the recognition and public homage to the victims caused by the Popular Front, and to obtain the declaration of genocide for the slaughter of Catholics that carried out. But it is also a necessary step to avoid the progressive illegalization of anyone who does not bow to the totalitarian demands of the left.
Francisco Franco National Foundation

Madrid, August 14, 2017
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  #10  
Old 04 Sep 17, 09:41
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Just an update: it seems local parties and also European MPs have decided to involve the European authorities with regard to this little mess:
http://www.eldiario.es/galicia/BNG-F...681031956.html

Various petitions launched on change.org seem to have gathered, together, about 200,000 signatures in favor of making the foundation illegal or otherwise restricting its wrongdoings.

Meanwhile the foundation has gone public with a defense stating that after all, Franco did not shoot anybody personally nor did he dictate any death sentence. Hmm, about whom did I hear such a defense?
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Old 04 Sep 17, 10:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Just an update: it seems local parties and also European MPs have decided to involve the European authorities with regard to this little mess:
http://www.eldiario.es/galicia/BNG-F...681031956.html

Various petitions launched on change.org seem to have gathered, together, about 200,000 signatures in favor of making the foundation illegal or otherwise restricting its wrongdoings.

Meanwhile the foundation has gone public with a defense stating that after all, Franco did not shoot anybody personally nor did he dictate any death sentence. Hmm, about whom did I hear such a defense?
And I'm sure that he was shocked, absolutely shocked when he heard about what had been going on

In his memoirs one of the Luftwaffe aces comments on the holocaust (which of course he only found out about afterwards!) "Obviously nobody had informed the Fuhrer or he would have put a stop to it" Either self delusion or hypocrisy on a mega scale
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  #12  
Old 04 Sep 17, 10:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barca View Post
Has anyone seen this petition to make organizations like the Franco foundation illegal? They want to shut them down because they promote a positive perspective of Franco's regime.

https://www.change.org/p/a-los-grupo...gn=autopublish

I don't know much about the Franco foundation, but according to this article, it is promoting hate and attacking the dignity of the victims.
Never heard of the Franco Foundation before, but it is a bit bloody obvious that the ones who want to promote hate are the ones trying to ban it.

The usual cognitive dissonance of the left
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Old 05 Sep 17, 04:11
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I've had a cursory look through the main articles of their website. Very superficial look, but I did not find anything remotely in the category of incitement to commit anyhting against the law or classic hate speech.

It's more in the category of the IHR and neo-Nazi sites: lots of putrid propaganda, but careful wording when it comes to potentially actionable stuff. I can't say anything about less-than-public areas, venues, actual meetings etc., but I'd be surprised if they were less careful.

So it does boil down to the usual issue: freedom of thought, expression and speech takes precedence - at least for me. They aren't using it to incite action that would directly cause physical harm, or other crimes to be committed, so they should be allowed to spew forth their stuff.

Indeed, while I had never heard of them, they're not new, they've been around for many years. If they had actually incited crimes to be committed, or anything like that, you'd expect the Spanish police to have intervened by now. That impression is confirmed by the fact that decent people are now resorting to political and lawmaking venues, rather than appealing to the courts. If the final outcome is new laws that limit freedom of speech, then that will be the Spaniards shooting themselves in the foot, if you ask me.

Naturally, if the Foundation is not silenced, that doesn't mean that it cannot or that it won't be curbed. As of now, and as far as I understand, it might well be that this happens along a follow-the-money approach, and based on legal details (nothing wrong there, it's how they pinned Al Capone after all). It seems the Foundation has violated the law by not disclosing its sources of funding. Allegedly, they are also not complying with particulars of the laws regulating national heritage sites, one of which they are managing. That sort of stuff. If they are still allowed to disseminate the notion that Franco was such a nice peace-loving guy and such a great patriot, but at the same time they don't get a free pass as to dropping a cigarette stub in the street, that will be OK with me. Their lies should be countered simply with the truth, not by silencing them. YMMV.

All in all, this might well be a topic for present-day political discussion than for historical SCW discussion.
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Old 05 Sep 17, 06:13
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Great, if only all our auslanders were so scrutinized for hate and crimes
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Old 05 Sep 17, 06:57
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Quote:
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Great, if only all our auslanders were so scrutinized for hate and crimes

To all posting in this thread.
Please stick to the topic at hand, the Franco Foundation. Other comments and discussions on current political subjects should be taken to the proper section of the forum, the Current Events section. Going forwards off topic comments will tbe removed.
Thank you for your help in this
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