HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Weapons of War

Notices and Announcements

Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 17 Aug 17, 16:54
TacCovert4's Avatar
TacCovert4 TacCovert4 is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Nick
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 14,576
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
SiG P320 Flawed?

So....the US got done choosing its new pistol. And the P320 won.

Now.....

We're seeing proof that when this pistol falls onto the back of the slide it can and will discharge accidentally. Note I said accidentally not negligently, this is a mechanical malfunction rather than an operator error (other than the pistol dropping). There's even some allegation that it will discharge when dropped at other angles as well.

Does this mean that the testing the US did was fatally flawed? I'm just not seeing a pistol make it through the batteries of tests without being dropped on concrete, or at least hard dirt, a few hundred times to make sure that it's safe if it falls off a table or out of a holster while running, or heck out of your hand if you fall.
__________________
Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 17 Aug 17, 17:13
Mountain Man's Avatar
Mountain Man Mountain Man is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Rocky Mts, USA
Posts: 68,772
Mountain Man has disabled reputation
Anybody else remember when America created a great nation using its own weapons, built right here in the USA?

Quote:
Bottom Line Up Front SIG acknowledges that the commercial P320, used by armed citizens and members of Law Enforcement, may unintentionally discharge if dropped at a -30deg angle.
$580 million would have generated a few American jobs. Meanwhile. I note with wonder and amusement that the calibre has not yet been specified. Probably a lot of testing to determine how much recoil women and transgenders can hang on to.
__________________
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 17 Aug 17, 18:50
johns624's Avatar
johns624 johns624 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,313
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
The SIG is made in New Hampshire. There is quite a lot of talk about how quickly SIG had a fix ready. Some think that they knew the gun was unsafe but were hoping that it wouldn't be found out. I wonder what procurement manager was hoping to land a job with SIG-Sauer after their military retirement. I find it odd that quite a few military units bought sidearms other than the M9 or M11 for their men, but none of them chose the P320. The P320 was a minor rework of their commercial failure P250. The 250 was hammer fired and the 320 is striker fired. It is about the only striker fired gun without a trigger or firing pin safety.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 17 Aug 17, 19:43
TacCovert4's Avatar
TacCovert4 TacCovert4 is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Nick
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 14,576
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
I agree, it's very odd.

I wonder if this issue did/would've had any bearing on Glock's lawsuit after the decision? Or if it will lead to lawsuits by other companies, namely S&W.

When it came down to the competition, there were basically 3 main criteria that apply to handguns in military service. The military can add on 'wants', but there are three basic needs:

1) It goes Bang when you pull the trigger, and continues to do so as long as there is ammunition in the magazine.

2) It is reasonably accurate out to 50m, by reasonably I mean a group the size of a pie plate at that range.

3) It doesn't have catastrophic malfunctions (blows up) or dangerous malfunctions (regular stovepipes, breakage of parts unreasonably, or "going bang when there's no operator input").

It seems that SiG's offering couldn't even meet those three basics. I wouldn't call for a new round of competition. I'd cancel the contract with SiG under their breach for providing an inadequate and dangerous firearm under the pretense that it is safe, and go with the runner up for the contract. If there is such a clause I'd require SiG to buy back ALL firearms that they've already delivered.

I mean Geez, we've been able to make a reasonably reliable and reasonably safe auto-pistol for over 100 years. Accepting delivery of a pistol that's NOT safe is stupid. And if they have a mechanical discharge problem, that is a massive safety issue, and one that would seriously drain my confidence that there are not other unidentified issues, or that any fix is a permanent fix.

I will say, and to note I'm agreeing with TFBTV on this last part, so this bit isn't original. I'm surprised that SiG has done such a poor job of addressing this problem. They claimed there wasn't an issue when Dallas PD removed the P320 from it's approved weapons list as unsafe, and now that there's video proof on the internet that there is a safety issue, they're doing a 'voluntary upgrade'. What surprises me is that they didn't check and verify in house and then go all out to recall guns, having customers request shipping labels and taking them back at their expense to fix them and send them back.

Mechanically induced accidental discharges are what makes the difference between a Beretta and a Jiminez 9mm. That SiG greenlit a flawed design, pushed it on the military, used that to accelerate its LE and commercial sales, and then when the flaw is blatantly discovered and exposed first tried to deny and then to spin it with this BS "upgrade" (as if it's an optional extra for your gun not to go off if it falls off the coffee table).....really destroys my opinion of their company.

I have also heard, but not confirmed, that this flaw is going to be center stage in a lawsuit filed by IIRC a Dallas Officer. His P320, fully encased in a level 3 Safariland ALS holster (which is one of the better ones) fell and discharged, striking his knee and requiring surgery.
__________________
Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 17 Aug 17, 19:45
MonsterZero's Avatar
MonsterZero MonsterZero is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 11,115
MonsterZero has achieved enlightenment [1200+] MonsterZero has achieved enlightenment [1200+] MonsterZero has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
MonsterZero has achieved enlightenment [1200+] MonsterZero has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Hey, I want Diese Pistole! I test fired it. It's incredibly cool. The guys at the store are encouraging me to buy the compact version.

__________________

"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
--Frederick II, King of Prussia
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 17 Aug 17, 19:55
johns624's Avatar
johns624 johns624 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,313
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
All correct TC, except it was a Stamford, CT officer.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 18 Aug 17, 08:31
johns624's Avatar
johns624 johns624 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,313
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
Hey, I want Diese Pistole! I test fired it. It's incredibly cool. The guys at the store are encouraging me to buy the compact version.

Are you kidding or don't they like you at that shop?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18 Aug 17, 11:34
Mountain Man's Avatar
Mountain Man Mountain Man is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Rocky Mts, USA
Posts: 68,772
Mountain Man has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
The SIG is made in New Hampshire. There is quite a lot of talk about how quickly SIG had a fix ready. Some think that they knew the gun was unsafe but were hoping that it wouldn't be found out. I wonder what procurement manager was hoping to land a job with SIG-Sauer after their military retirement. I find it odd that quite a few military units bought sidearms other than the M9 or M11 for their men, but none of them chose the P320. The P320 was a minor rework of their commercial failure P250. The 250 was hammer fired and the 320 is striker fired. It is about the only striker fired gun without a trigger or firing pin safety.
Made in America by a foreign company...
__________________
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 18 Aug 17, 11:41
johns624's Avatar
johns624 johns624 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,313
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Made in America by a foreign company...
You were concerned with jobs--the jobs are here. How many American companies really aren't? Chrysler is owned by Fiat. What percentage of Fortune 500 companies stock is owned by foreigners?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11 Sep 17, 14:47
Merkava188's Avatar
Merkava188 Merkava188 is offline
Major
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Doug Williams
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sierra Vista
Posts: 910
Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99]
Nice looking gun. If it were up to me I would look at going back to the 45 caliber rounds.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 11 Sep 17, 14:56
Half Pint John's Avatar
Half Pint John Half Pint John is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: John (NO LABELS)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Posts: 47,053
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]  [+1]
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Anybody else remember when America created a great nation using its own weapons, built right here in the USA?



$580 million would have generated a few American jobs. Meanwhile. I note with wonder and amusement that the calibre has not yet been specified. Probably a lot of testing to determine how much recoil women and transgenders can hang on to.
WRONG, again or at least uninformed, again. Sort of

There are now two SIG Sauer companies, one in New Hampshire, US, and the other in Eckenforde, Germany. Since its creation in the US, all new SIG Sauer designs presented by this company have been designed in the US.

Son of a gun
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

'half-baked, spurious nationalism'
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11 Sep 17, 20:29
johns624's Avatar
johns624 johns624 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,313
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
Nice looking gun. If it were up to me I would look at going back to the 45 caliber rounds.
No need to go back to the .45.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11 Sep 17, 21:25
MonsterZero's Avatar
MonsterZero MonsterZero is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 11,115
MonsterZero has achieved enlightenment [1200+] MonsterZero has achieved enlightenment [1200+] MonsterZero has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
MonsterZero has achieved enlightenment [1200+] MonsterZero has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
You guys are raining on my parade. I didn't realize SiG is in trouble. So what should be my standard 9mm pistol? A Glock?
__________________

"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
--Frederick II, King of Prussia
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11 Sep 17, 21:41
Urban hermit's Avatar
Urban hermit Urban hermit is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Jim
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Wild West
Posts: 8,328
Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700] Urban hermit is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Ever since the US adopted the 92 I have questioned the integrity of the arms procurement system.
__________________
Dispite our best intentions, the system is dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed.
Russ Travers, CIA analyst, 2001

Last edited by Urban hermit; 11 Sep 17 at 23:29..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11 Sep 17, 22:09
johns624's Avatar
johns624 johns624 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,313
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
You guys are raining on my parade. I didn't realize SiG is in trouble. So what should be my standard 9mm pistol? A Glock?
Everybody should have a Glock 19.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 16:26.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.