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  #31  
Old 11 Aug 17, 19:29
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they took France ''fast'', Norway, Crete,
won a lot of battles in N Africa,
wiped out a lot of Russians and Russian territory,
their subs did well,
Luftwaffe gave the US a bloody nose,
great defense of Italy, against naval superiority
held Normandy-- against naval and air superiority--for a while, even with hitler's interference
etc-
-they were good
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  #32  
Old 11 Aug 17, 19:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post
Well......

It did take 6 years to beat them.
against the 3 greatest powers-- plus
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  #33  
Old 11 Aug 17, 19:45
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Don't forget the Germans were not fighting the Allies all the time. They often had to travel to find them to fight them. The British were kicked out of France and then had to go to North Africa to find someone to fight. This was not on the same scale as France. They tended to use the Commonwealth harder than the British Army. France took off after 1940 and only reentered the fight after the North African colonies went over. The Americans took several years to grow and train the Army until it was capable of invading France. The Soviets did not start fighting the Germans until 1941.

While the Germans were fighting from 1939 on it would seem the Allies were doing a tag team on them until they all piled on. Even several German allies turned on the Germans.

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  #34  
Old 11 Aug 17, 19:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
The mythos of German military power in WW 2 can be easily summed up as...

Usually it's the victors that write the histories after a war. But, after WW 2, the Germans were largely the ones that the histories discussed, often from the point of view of their generals. There were also numerous books written on German equipment and technology while few equivalent ones were published on Western Allied or Soviet equipment. The US published a few general histories and left it at that. The Soviets were now the "enemy" and most of their stuff was inaccessible. The published accounts were largely patriotic propaganda pieces. Japan's records were either destroyed or difficult to access due to the language barrier, while the Pacific often became a near forgotten theater of war. The British published a general history too that wasn't widely distributed and almost nothing came out about other aspects of their participation.

It all led to the losers narrating the outcome. "We lost due to superior numbers..." "It was Hitler's fault..." "Our equipment was the best..."
All of that an more was the narrative you saw coming out of post WW 2 histories for the most part. Little of it got challenged in the West where academics saw military history as the pariah stepson of history and wanted little to do with it. Military history wasn't even taught at most universities.
So, with the German narrative, no academic interest, and little refutation of what was being published you got the "The German army was super excellent and only lost because of huge numbers arrayed against them." Add to that the "German military equipment was far and away the best of everything" narrative and the mythos that grew in the 50's to 80's was inevitable.
I like this as explanation of history but it started during the war and other people have addressed that so it comes down to how you ask the question.
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  #35  
Old 11 Aug 17, 20:02
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Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
Then you got people like Beltran Cooper, whose POV is understandable, but misguided, writing books like 'Death Traps' which disparaged the very good Sherman tank while commenting on how superior the enemy equipment was. Quick question: If the official German TOE for the Panzer-Waffe was 50% Pzkpfw Mark IV and 50% Pzkpfw V Panther; what percentage did that leave for the Tiger tanks?
Tigers were a rounding error...
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  #36  
Old 11 Aug 17, 20:04
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Unless you were the SS divisions at Kursk, Tiger tanks were not given to Panzer Regiments. They were usually in Company or Battalion units. The Panzer Regiments did get STUG's and Panzerjaeger if there was a lack of P-IV's or Panthers.

Pruitt
There's a few other examples where a company or so was attached to a panzer division, such as with HG "parachute" panzer division...
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  #37  
Old 11 Aug 17, 20:06
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Don't forget the Germans were not fighting the Allies all the time. They often had to travel to find them to fight them. The British were kicked out of France and then had to go to North Africa to find someone to fight. This was not on the same scale as France. They tended to use the Commonwealth harder than the British Army. France took off after 1940 and only reentered the fight after the North African colonies went over. The Americans took several years to grow and train the Army until it was capable of invading France. The Soviets did not start fighting the Germans until 1941.

While the Germans were fighting from 1939 on it would seem the Allies were doing a tag team on them until they all piled on. Even several German allies turned on the Germans.

Pruitt
good point....good analogy...it wasn't until the ''pile on'' that things started to go downhill??
...one other aspect is the Germans did have to prepare, plan, transport, etc troops and logistics to many different, ''far'' away areas and climes
...my question would be: did they do the logistics side well? that's part of the military..seems like they did well considering the handicaps
...I forgot to mention the Battle of the Bulge was a ''surprise'' to the Allies...a big blow....that was a logistical ''miracle'' to prepare and stage in the face of the Allies' airpower
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  #38  
Old 11 Aug 17, 22:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Unless you were the SS divisions at Kursk, Tiger tanks were not given to Panzer Regiments. They were usually in Company or Battalion units. The Panzer Regiments did get STUG's and Panzerjaeger if there was a lack of P-IV's or Panthers.
My point was that the Tigers were fielded in fairly small numbers. IIRC less than 1500 for Tiger Is and less than 600 for Tiger IIs.
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  #39  
Old 11 Aug 17, 22:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
There's a few other examples where a company or so was attached to a panzer division, such as with HG "parachute" panzer division...
I always wanted to see the aircraft that could carry a Tiger for the 1st Fallschirm-Panzer Division Hermann Göring!!

(Image used without permission for educational purposes only.)
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  #40  
Old 11 Aug 17, 22:36
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German logistics were often by a shoestring. Artillery shells and ammo could be scarce. Fuel was also limited. As the railroads were disrupted, so was the lines of supply.

The German troops used to attack in the Ardennes were accumulated by the Head of the Reserve Army to use in the coup to overthrow Hitler. The Germans used all the replacements, arms and equipment they had not been sending to the front to refill the divisions. The Navy and Luftwaffe were combed out and the men became Infantry.

There was a severe shortage of Junior and Field Officers. The 3rd and 5th Fallschirmjaeger divisions went around the field in bunches. American Field Observers for the Artillery could not believe their eyes.

Several Volksgrenadier Divisions had a good cadre of leaders and experienced NCO's and did very well. The SS divisions underperformed. The 1st and 2nd SS Panzers had been tasked to provide cadres to new SS Divisions.

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  #41  
Old 11 Aug 17, 22:48
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I always wanted to see the aircraft that could carry a Tiger for the 1st Fallschirm-Panzer Division Hermann Göring!!

(Image used without permission for educational purposes only.)
As the war went on, fewer and fewer Fallschirmjaeger regiments were capable of Jumping. During the Ardennes battle the 6th Fallschirmjaeger Regiment was the only Jump qualified unit available. They only had 600 or so men available. Half of the men did not reach the airfield and the ones that did were scattered all over the woods.

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  #42  
Old 11 Aug 17, 23:48
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Old 12 Aug 17, 00:07
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The training of the German soldier was good, even the teenage ones ( Like myself ). When they were captured they were frightened at first, for they had stories about how the Russians treated prisoners and thought we might be the same. But the German soldier when in action was some one to be reckoned with. lcm1
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Old 12 Aug 17, 01:12
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I always wanted to see the aircraft that could carry a Tiger for the 1st Fallschirm-Panzer Division Hermann Göring!!

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Old 12 Aug 17, 01:17
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The training of the German soldier was good, even the teenage ones ( Like myself ). When they were captured they were frightened at first, for they had stories about how the Russians treated prisoners and thought we might be the same. But the German soldier when in action was some one to be reckoned with. lcm1
There were boys as young as 12 in the Volkstrum. In the last year they were drafting the 16 year olds and Guderian claimed he prevented the 15 year olds from being called up. They fought in the Volkstrum instead. A twelve year old with a Panzerfaust scared the Hades out of American Tankers.

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