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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines

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Alternate Timelines The plausible "what if's" of military history.

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  #46  
Old 30 Aug 17, 13:08
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Its very simple, before mid 1942 Britain was fighting defensive actions and had little choice over where and when to fight. After mid 42 she was mainly fighting offensive actions and could choose where and when much more.
They still did it poorly enough that they lost almost every single time... except against the Italians... Doesn't speak well to British Army military prowess...
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  #47  
Old 30 Aug 17, 13:44
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Originally Posted by walle View Post
Never said they were under obligation.

What I've said, and maintained all along, is that had England not declared war on Germany, these countries would not have declared war on Germany. There would have been no reason for them to do so, now that England did, they followed suit and declared war on Germany.



That would be the subtext, correct.

"Fellow Australians, it is my melancholy duty to inform you officially, that in consequence of a persistence by Germany in her invasion of Poland, Great Britain has declared war upon her and that, as a result, Australia is also at war"

What I've said, and maintained all along, is that had England not declared war on Germany, these countries would not have declared war on Germany. There would have been no reason for them to do so, now that England did, they followed suit and declared war on Germany.

England never declared war on anyone. There was, and is, no such animal as an English government. I am not sure what point you think you are making by suggesting that 'these countries would not have declared war on Germany' if 'England' (I assume you mean the United Kingdom) hadn't. This is a fatuous remark, unworthy of further response.

Your original comment, as far back as post 17, was :-

With England out of the equation the Empire would have been finished I think, the countries under English rule would no longer be under English rule, and perhaps seen a chance to free themselves. Besides, why should we fight for England and die as flies doing so in the first place kind of thing?


You still seem totally unable to grasp the fact that the four Commonwealth countries of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa were independent, self-governing, states by September, 1939, and each made the choice to support the United Kingdom freely and without any compulsion. Do you think that there were British garrisons there, to keep the locals safely under the iron heel of British imperialism, or something? Hell, in the case of Australia, we couldn't even stop bloody Bradman!

To suggest that they would have seen the conquest of the United Kingdom as an opportunity to 'free themselves' from 'English' rule is absurd, as by 1939 they were not subject to any external rule, whether it be by the 'English,' the British, or by anyone else.

Any news on your evidence for Churchill the warmonger yet?
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  #48  
Old 30 Aug 17, 14:03
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
They still did it poorly enough that they lost almost every single time... except against the Italians... Doesn't speak well to British Army military prowess...
I can't really argue with you, other than to say that, even in her pomp, the United Kingdom was never a major land power. The small regular army was, in effect, little more than an imperial police force.

In the 2nd World War, I believe that the British, and probably most others, anticipated something of a repeat of the Great War, with the French dominating the land conflict on the Western Front, and the RN imposing a similar blockade to the one which throttled the life out of the Kaiser's Germany. That famous warmonger (according to some!) Churchill, was saying, as early as 1933, 'Thank God for the French Army.'

With the collapse of France, the British were facing a situation for which they were hopelessly unprepared, and as a result did find themselves committing inadequate resources (both in numbers and/or training) to campaigns which were often undertaken for political reasons.

Or, in other words:-

THANK GOD WE HAD A NAVY!
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  #49  
Old 30 Aug 17, 14:03
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Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
[You still seem totally unable to grasp the fact that the four Commonwealth countries of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa were independent, self-governing, states by September, 1939, and each made the choice to support the United Kingdom freely and without any compulsion. Do you think that there were British garrisons there, to keep the locals safely under the iron heel of British imperialism, or something? Hell, in the case of Australia, we couldn't even stop bloody Bradman!
The British would do no such thing in Canada, eh... They had French Canadian mercenaries for that, eh! Why do think the British would tolerate a bunch of French speaking toadies in Quebec otherwise, eh...?

With the Aussies they got promised beer and fighting...

While the New Zealanders didn't have a clue and just went along with things.

In S. Africa they messed up the translation to Afrikaans, and well duped them into declaring war...

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  #50  
Old 30 Aug 17, 19:00
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Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee
I am not sure what point you think you are making by suggesting that 'these countries would not have declared war on Germany' if 'England' (I assume you mean the United Kingdom) hadn't. This is a fatuous remark, unworthy of further response
None of these countries would have declared war on Germany unless England had declared war on Germany, because again, there would have been no cause for them to go to war, unless of course, Germany had declared war on them first.

Nothing fatuous about it at all. Not even close.
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  #51  
Old 31 Aug 17, 03:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walle View Post
None of these countries would have declared war on Germany unless England had declared war on Germany, because again, there would have been no cause for them to go to war, unless of course, Germany had declared war on them first.

Nothing fatuous about it at all. Not even close.
FATUOUS, Dictionary Definition :-

vacantly silly, purposeless, idiotic.

Which I submit rather neatly covers the suggestion that there was even the remotest possibility that any other Commonwealth country would have declared war if the United Kingdom did not. Indeed, no one has been foolish enough to suggest this.

However, your original suggestion (post 17) was :-

With England out of the equation the Empire would have been finished I think, the countries under English rule would no longer be under English rule, and perhaps seen a chance to free themselves. Besides, why should we fight for England and die as flies doing so in the first place kind of thing?


which, with the inclusion of two false claims, that these countries were under 'English' rule in the first place, and that they would see the defeat of Great Britain as an opportunity to free themselves from this imaginary overlordship in the second, is a rather different argument, although probably equally fatuous.

Perhaps you should stop posting tedious repetitive comments, and concentrate your efforts on searching for evidence of Churchill the warmonger, as your statements on this topic have been rather conspicuous by their absence.
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  #52  
Old 31 Aug 17, 04:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
FATUOUS, Dictionary Definition :-

vacantly silly, purposeless, idiotic.

Which I submit rather neatly covers the suggestion that there was even the remotest possibility that any other Commonwealth country would have declared war if the United Kingdom did not. Indeed, no one has been foolish enough to suggest this.

However, your original suggestion (post 17) was :-

With England out of the equation the Empire would have been finished I think, the countries under English rule would no longer be under English rule, and perhaps seen a chance to free themselves. Besides, why should we fight for England and die as flies doing so in the first place kind of thing?


which, with the inclusion of two false claims, that these countries were under 'English' rule in the first place, and that they would see the defeat of Great Britain as an opportunity to free themselves from this imaginary overlordship in the second, is a rather different argument, although probably equally fatuous.

Perhaps you should stop posting tedious repetitive comments, and concentrate your efforts on searching for evidence of Churchill the warmonger, as your statements on this topic have been rather conspicuous by their absence.
And furthermore just as Britain could not declare war on their behalf neither could she make peace for them either. Had Britain made terms with Germany in 1940 so each dominion would have had to come to its own terms with Germany as individual nations. Whilst it is probable that they would have it was not an automatic process just as going to war in the first place was not.
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  #53  
Old 31 Aug 17, 05:15
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So far we have established that Australia went to war because England went to war, and that Menzies confirmed so, we have established that Australia had no independent foreign policy, in so far that it had not been ratified in 1939, it was ratified in 1942.

Correct, neither Australia, New Zealand, Canada or South Africa would have declared war on Germany had England not done so. Hence the nuance of "independence".

Close enough ties to England to have the King (today the Queen) as head of state. It may only be symbolic today, but symbolism has meaning, and back then it carried even more weight. Close enough ties to England and the Empire to go to war on its behalf.

As for Churchill he was a warmonger long before WWII, and well into the 1950's.
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  #54  
Old 31 Aug 17, 08:19
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Originally Posted by walle View Post
So far we have established that Australia went to war because England went to war, and that Menzies confirmed so, we have established that Australia had no independent foreign policy, in so far that it had not been ratified in 1939, it was ratified in 1942.

Correct, neither Australia, New Zealand, Canada or South Africa would have declared war on Germany had England not done so. Hence the nuance of "independence".

Close enough ties to England to have the King (today the Queen) as head of state. It may only be symbolic today, but symbolism has meaning, and back then it carried even more weight. Close enough ties to England and the Empire to go to war on its behalf.

As for Churchill he was a warmonger long before WWII, and well into the 1950's.
Do you read much David Irving? - wouldn't rely on him.

Simple fact that you don't seem to be able to recognise is that the Dominions did not have to declare war on Germany and Britain could not force them to do so.

In Canada there were motions in parliament by Liberal members in 1936 and 1937 for Canada to commit to neutrality if war should break out in Europe. MacKenzie King responded by saying it would be wrong to commit the country to either neutrality or belligerence until the actual circumstances arose. It appears that his real problem was that either decision at the time would split the country. By September 1939 public opinion had moved and a majority was firmly in favour of supporting Britain against what was seen as a German threat to the wider world. As one government minister put it at the time if Canada had not gone to war with Germany there would have been a rising against the government. Canada was not strong enough to act against Germany on her own but could alongside Britain.

Australia had long regarded Japan as the real threat to them. Australia on her own was not strong enough to withstand this and looked to Britain for support and therefore aligned her foreign policy with that of Britain. This changed with the fall of Singapore and Australia looked to the USA for salvation. It is fair to say that Australia was looking at her own interests when she declared war on Germany in 1939 - she needed the RN to be available to defend her.
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  #55  
Old 31 Aug 17, 14:14
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Originally Posted by walle View Post
So far we have established that Australia went to war because England went to war, and that Menzies confirmed so, we have established that Australia had no independent foreign policy, in so far that it had not been ratified in 1939, it was ratified in 1942.

Correct, neither Australia, New Zealand, Canada or South Africa would have declared war on Germany had England not done so. Hence the nuance of "independence".

Close enough ties to England to have the King (today the Queen) as head of state. It may only be symbolic today, but symbolism has meaning, and back then it carried even more weight. Close enough ties to England and the Empire to go to war on its behalf.

As for Churchill he was a warmonger long before WWII, and well into the 1950's.
Most of the above is irrelevant, given that your original claim was that in the event of Great Britain being defeated (presumably invaded?) the Empire would see this as an opportunity to free themselves from 'English' rule.

I take it that this is what you mean by your post 17, i.e.:-

With England out of the equation the Empire would have been finished I think, the countries under English rule would no longer be under English rule, and perhaps seen a chance to free themselves. Besides, why should we fight for England and die as flies doing so in the first place kind of thing?


You cannot produce a scrap of evidence in support of this, largely because the claim of 'English' domination of the Commonwealth countries is arrant nonsense, and serves only to demonstrate how ignorant you truly are of the nature of the British Empire & the Commonwealth in the 1930s.

As to :-

As for Churchill he was a warmonger long before WWII, and well into the 1950's.

saying a thing doesn't make it so, and you are, it appears, almost ludicrously unable to produce any evidence at all, other than your own prejudice based, I submit, on a remarkable lack of historical knowledge.
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  #56  
Old 01 Sep 17, 02:27
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Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee
Most of the above is irrelevant...
It was relevant enough for you to argue and relevant up to the point that you were proved wrong, at which point it turned "irrelevant" to you.

That's cool.

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Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee
You cannot produce a scrap of evidence in support of this, largely because the claim of 'English' domination of the Commonwealth countries is arrant nonsense, and serves only to demonstrate how ignorant you truly are of the nature of the British Empire & the Commonwealth in the 1930s.
As a matter of fact, England and her Empire was finished after the war. England hasn't been relevant since. Had England been taken out of the war in 1939 it would have ended sooner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee
As for Churchill he was a warmonger long before WWII, and well into the 1950's.
Indeed he was, both 20 years earlier, and leading up to WWII, and in the 1950's.

As for prejudice toward him? I haven't per-judged him at all. You however, like so many others, have put him on a pedestal.
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  #57  
Old 01 Sep 17, 03:32
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Originally Posted by walle View Post
It was relevant enough for you to argue and relevant up to the point that you were proved wrong, at which point it turned "irrelevant" to you.

That's cool.



As a matter of fact, England and her Empire was finished after the war. England hasn't been relevant since. Had England been taken out of the war in 1939 it would have ended sooner.



Indeed he was, both 20 years earlier, and leading up to WWII, and in the 1950's.

As for prejudice toward him? I haven't per-judged him at all. You however, like so many others, have put him on a pedestal.
It was relevant enough for you to argue and relevant up to the point that you were proved wrong, at which point it turned "irrelevant" to you.

I don't actually recall being proved wrong, at least not on this thread and certainly not by you.

Isn't it odd how people tend to divert from the subject when, like you, they are unable to maintain their argument?

As to the relevance of Great Britain after the war, once again this is not what the topic of this thread was supposed to be about, which was, if you recall:-

What if the allied armies at Dunkirk were trapped and forced to surrender/killed?

In other words, the discussion was about the situation of Great Britain and her Empire/Commonwealth in !940, not about the subsequent decline of Great Britain in the post war period. If you wish to start a separate thread on this subject, that is up to you, but it has no part on this one.

Finally, as to Churchill the warmonger, i.e:-

Indeed he was, both 20 years earlier, and leading up to WWII, and in the 1950's.

As for prejudice toward him? I haven't per-judged him at all. You however, like so many others, have put him on a pedestal.


Statements based on ill-informed personal prejudice are worthless, and you have so far failed to produce any examples of Churchill's 'warmongering.'

Finally, please provide one example from my posts to demonstrate that I have put Churchill on a pedestal. I have simply, and consistently, asked you to set down in writing evidence for your claim, and you have, equally consistently, failed to achieve this seemingly simple task.

Time to call it a day, don't you think?
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  #58  
Old 01 Sep 17, 05:07
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Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee
As to the relevance of Great Britain after the war, once again this is not what the topic of this thread was supposed to be about, which was, if you recall:-
What if the allied armies at Dunkirk were trapped and forced to surrender/killed?
Correct, so let's bring this back on topic then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walle
England would have sued for peace and Churchill would have been politically finished.

With England and France out of the war the United States would have been out too.
Post #14 page 1

It's also a what if's thread....I included some of that in my first post as well.

Then there's Scupios post #29 at page 2 which seems to support England having sued for peace, and with Churchill out of the equation, as in politically finished.

Last edited by walle; 01 Sep 17 at 11:08..
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  #59  
Old 01 Sep 17, 05:17
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Okay,would you care to define your understanding of the term, "Warmonger"?
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Old 01 Sep 17, 07:07
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A warmonger is someone who actively foments war. Cato the Elder ("Carthage delenda est") being an early example. This is quite different from someone who realises the probability of war and advocates being prepared for it and not yielding to threats. Churchill falls into this latter category. Whilst the outbreak of war in 1939 can have come as a surprise to very few in Britain this had not been the case in 1914. However a number of members of the Imperial General Staff and a handful of cabinet ministers who were aware of the Anglo French military conversation had been aware of the possibility, even the probability of war with Germany for some years. Churchill was amongst this number and as First Lord of the Admiralty had been trying to prepare the Royal Navy. However despite this he still thought that the Kaiser (with whom he was on good personal terms)could be talked round into abandoning the naval arms race and was prepared to travel to Germany to attempt this and was only stopped from doing so by a direct prohibition by Asquith. Not the actions of a warmonger
In the 1930s Churchill recognised that Hitler could not be talked round and that appeasement was the wrong policy. Britain should be preparing for war. This is not the same as actively seeking to foment one.

In the event whilst a British rearmament programme was underway by 1939 active planning was not. Whilst in 1914 the BEF's mobilisation and deployment to France (including the move towards Mons) followed a detailed plan agreed before 1913 and the general arrangements for cooperation with the French had likewise been in place for some time the assembly and deployment of the BEF in 1939 was largely a matter of last minute planning and hasty improvisation. Nor was there a clear idea of what they were to do when they got there or a good set of mechanisms for working with the French. Whereas plans had been agreed with Canada and Australia on mobilising their forces in the event of war well before 1914 (and even one for the Indian Army) there was nothing similar in 1939, indeed the British government could not be absolutely sure as to how they would respond, if at all.

Whereas the British Army in 1914 had some idea of how they might fight a war in Europe in 1914 and had even practiced a fighting retreat in the face of a numerically superior army (as they did in reality after Mons) in the exercises of 1913; the BEF of 1939/40 more or less had to make it up as they went along. Whether any of this would have been otherwise had Churchill been in government in the pre war years is an interesting matter for conjecture
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Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
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