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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines

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Alternate Timelines The plausible "what if's" of military history.

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  #16  
Old 26 Aug 17, 09:40
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Originally Posted by walle View Post
England would have sued for peace and Churchill would have been politically finished.

With England and France out of the war the United States would have been out too.

From this point forward pure speculations...which can be fun.

-------

I think that France would have been made to pay Germany war reparations, perhaps German troops on French soil (akin to what happened to Germany after the war) to really stick it to the French and humiliate them, would make sense from the historical track record of what he French did to the Germans.

England could have gotten a pass (Hitler never wanted a war with England in the first place, he saw the English people so similar as well as important as a major power in terms of balance) this could have meant no war reparations with trade and business to commence as usual. Let's agree to this being a mistake and a small skirmish and start fresh over kind of thing, it was just all a misunderstanding.

The war would have ended.

Germany would have retained her ancestral lands in the east, and been unified with Austria.

-------

Or...

If the war continued, Germany and Russia duking it out bleeding themselves dry.

The Italians wouldn't have been able to do anything without a German alliance and simply gone back to riding scooters.
England would have sued for peace and Churchill would have been politically finished.

You evidence for this is?

By the way, as you claim that 'England' would have sued for peace, do you believe that Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland (and the Isle of Man) would have continued the struggle, supported by the Empire & Commonwealth?
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  #17  
Old 26 Aug 17, 09:53
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Churchill was the premier war monger and if the army would have been annihilated at Dunkirk he would have lost all political capital I think, this idea of war with Germany was not as popular as we are often led to believe.

England is the biggest country in the union. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would have followed suit.

Heck, the Germans could have played the union on it's weakness and simply broken it up.

You Scots want independence from the English? You got it. The conflict is not with you, we understand that you were along for the ride etc etc...now with England out you're free. No need to fight us etc etc.

What would have been the motivation for the Scots to fight on behalf of the English anyway?

The Scots would most likely have gone for the option of independence instead.

Edit.
With England out of the equation the Empire would have been finished I think, the countries under English rule would no longer be under English rule, and perhaps seen a chance to free themselves. Besides, why should we fight for England and die as flies doing so in the first place kind of thing?

Unions are only surface strong. More so when they are made up from different nations (nation=people) and different cultures etc.

You can look at any union. Sure, some last longer than others - such as the Roman Empire - but in the end they ALL break up. Why? In part because of all these differences, and in part because they are all impositions.

Last edited by walle; 26 Aug 17 at 10:12..
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  #18  
Old 26 Aug 17, 10:29
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Originally Posted by walle View Post

The Scots would most likely have gone for the option of independence instead.

Right, because the scots would gain their independence just because someone somewhere says so?
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  #19  
Old 26 Aug 17, 10:41
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Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Right, because the scots would gain their independence just because someone somewhere says so?
My previous post was in two parts.

The first part addressed the first question by Doveton Sturdee.

The second part addressed his question about Scotland, Wales, and Northerner Ireland keeping on fighting the Germans with England defeated and out of the equation.

I would argue that they would not, I think that's a more likely outcome then them continuing fighting on behalf of the English.

I then followed up by saying that the Germans could have played on the unions weakness and broken it up, given the Scots independence from the English. I very much doubt that they would have objected to that arrangement. Besides, what would England have had in place there to object Scottish independence with in the first place?

Lastly, I said I thought the Empire would have been finished if England had fallen.

This is just speculation, there's nothing to get all worked up about. Besides, it didn't happen this way.

Hence "what if's".

I do however think these things would have been a plausible outcome.
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  #20  
Old 26 Aug 17, 12:40
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Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
In point of fact, around 224,000 British troops were lifted during 'Dynamo' and a further 192,000 as part of the post Dunkirk evacuations, so 'Cycle' & 'Aerial' could hardly be described as lifting 'a Division here or there.'
You are right, there was more outside Dunkirk than I thought.
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  #21  
Old 26 Aug 17, 14:48
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Originally Posted by walle View Post
My previous post was in two parts.

The first part addressed the first question by Doveton Sturdee.

The second part addressed his question about Scotland, Wales, and Northerner Ireland keeping on fighting the Germans with England defeated and out of the equation.

I would argue that they would not, I think that's a more likely outcome then them continuing fighting on behalf of the English.

I then followed up by saying that the Germans could have played on the unions weakness and broken it up, given the Scots independence from the English. I very much doubt that they would have objected to that arrangement. Besides, what would England have had in place there to object Scottish independence with in the first place?

Lastly, I said I thought the Empire would have been finished if England had fallen.

This is just speculation, there's nothing to get all worked up about. Besides, it didn't happen this way.

Hence "what if's".

I do however think these things would have been a plausible outcome.

The first part addressed the first question by Doveton Sturdee.

Actually, my question to you was :-

Your evidence for this is?

Whilst you might claim to have addressed it, you have by no means answered it.

I regret that you have not realized that my comments about Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland (and the Isle of Man!) were sarcastic. The Westminster government was the government of an entity called the 'United Kingdom,' not 'England.'

In point of fact, there were no significant weaknesses within the United Kingdom at that time, other of course than the presence of a small Republican faction in Northern Ireland, and there was certainly nothing that Hitler could offer which would encourage the good burghers of Wales and Scotland to rise (leeks and claymores in hand, perhaps?) against what you seem to perceive as their English overlords.

Similarly, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, whilst still retaining George VI as Head of State, were by no means under 'English Rule' but were independent nation states whose governments declared war on Germany on 9th, 3rd, 3rd, & 4th September, 1939, and on Italy on 10th, 11th, 11th, & 11th June, 1940, respectively.

Sorry, but you seem to be intent upon making claims with little in the way of supporting evidence to justify them.

Last edited by Doveton Sturdee; 26 Aug 17 at 14:52.. Reason: addition.
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  #22  
Old 26 Aug 17, 15:20
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Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post

Actually, my question to you was :-

Your evidence for this is?

Whilst you might claim to have addressed it, you have by no means answered it
My "evidence" for that is that he was a warmonger, and that war with Germany was not as popular as we have been led to believe, and if the army had been annihilated at Dunkirk, he would have lost his political capital. He was the one pushing for war.

That's my evidence for why he would have lost his political capital and been finished. Can't prove that of course, since it didn't happen. Then again I never claimed that I could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee
I regret that you have not realized that my comments about Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland (and the Isle of Man!) were sarcastic. The Westminster government was the government of an entity called the 'United Kingdom,' not 'England.'
Who said I didn't' recognize the sarcasm? England's still in the drivers seat regardless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee
in point of fact, there were no significant weaknesses within the United Kingdom at that time....
If England had been defeated the weakness I spoke of would have surfaced, because things would then have changed, would be my point.

Fast forward today, which I think you refereed to when you said the union didn't have the weakness back then, well, things changed when the English voted to leave the EU, Scotland all the sudden wanted out. Things changed, and this was during peace time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Sturdee
Similarly, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, whilst still retaining George VI as Head of State, were by no means under 'English Rule' but were independent nation states whose governments declared war on Germany on 9th, 3rd, 3rd, & 4th September, 1939, and on Italy on 10th, 11th, 11th, & 11th June, 1940, respectively.
Which they would not have done had they been “independent” countries. Unless Germany declared war on them first of course, in which case their declaration of war on Germany would have been just. Or pure formality at that point.

So these countries declaring war on Germany was directly linked to England's declaration of war on Germany.

Australia never declared war on Germany, they lacked independent foreign policy to begin with, but since England was at war with Germany, so was Australia.

Last edited by walle; 26 Aug 17 at 15:47..
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  #23  
Old 26 Aug 17, 21:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walle View Post
My "evidence" for that is that he was a warmonger, and that war with Germany was not as popular as we have been led to believe, and if the army had been annihilated at Dunkirk, he would have lost his political capital. He was the one pushing for war.

That's my evidence for why he would have lost his political capital and been finished. Can't prove that of course, since it didn't happen. Then again I never claimed that I could.



Who said I didn't' recognize the sarcasm? England's still in the drivers seat regardless.



If England had been defeated the weakness I spoke of would have surfaced, because things would then have changed, would be my point.

Fast forward today, which I think you refereed to when you said the union didn't have the weakness back then, well, things changed when the English voted to leave the EU, Scotland all the sudden wanted out. Things changed, and this was during peace time.



Which they would not have done had they been “independent” countries. Unless Germany declared war on them first of course, in which case their declaration of war on Germany would have been just. Or pure formality at that point.

So these countries declaring war on Germany was directly linked to England's declaration of war on Germany.

Australia never declared war on Germany, they lacked independent foreign policy to begin with, but since England was at war with Germany, so was Australia.
Your last paragraph is interesting. Would you care to enlarge upon it ?
The Statute of Westminster was not contested ,I think.
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  #24  
Old 27 Aug 17, 04:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walle View Post
My "evidence" for that is that he was a warmonger, and that war with Germany was not as popular as we have been led to believe, and if the army had been annihilated at Dunkirk, he would have lost his political capital. He was the one pushing for war.

That's my evidence for why he would have lost his political capital and been finished. Can't prove that of course, since it didn't happen. Then again I never claimed that I could.

Who said I didn't' recognize the sarcasm? England's still in the drivers seat regardless.

If England had been defeated the weakness I spoke of would have surfaced, because things would then have changed, would be my point.

Fast forward today, which I think you refereed to when you said the union didn't have the weakness back then, well, things changed when the English voted to leave the EU, Scotland all the sudden wanted out. Things changed, and this was during peace time.



Which they would not have done had they been “independent” countries. Unless Germany declared war on them first of course, in which case their declaration of war on Germany would have been just. Or pure formality at that point.

So these countries declaring war on Germany was directly linked to England's declaration of war on Germany.

Australia never declared war on Germany, they lacked independent foreign policy to begin with, but since England was at war with Germany, so was Australia.
My "evidence" for that is that he was a warmonger, and that war with Germany was not as popular as we have been led to believe, and if the army had been annihilated at Dunkirk, he would have lost his political capital. He was the one pushing for war.

What exactly do you mean by the emotive phrase 'warmonger?' Are you aware that when Churchill became Prime Minister the United Kingdom had been at war for over seven months? Churchill as Prime Minister certainly opposed the idea of a 'negotiated' peace with Germany, but he did not initiate the war.

If England had been defeated the weakness I spoke of would have surfaced, because things would then have changed, would be my point.



You appear to have an unhealthy 'England' fixation. In the inconceivable event of a successful German invasion, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would have been defeated. The 'weakness' of which you speak is nothing more than your personal desire for wish fulfillment, and entirely without evidence.

Incidentally, the recent (supposed) Scottish desire for independence had nothing at all to do with the recent EU referendum vote, and more to do with the extension of additional powers to the Scottish Parliament. In any case, there was a significant majority against independence in the Scottish referendum.

Which they would not have done had they been “independent” countries.

Sorry, but they were, and they did

Australia never declared war on Germany.

Robert Menzies' speech is readily available on line. Why not view if for yourself and then tell us again that Australia did not declare war on Germany?

The relevant section of the Statute of Westminster (dated 1931) is :-

No Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom passed after the commencement of this Act shall extend, or be deemed to extend, to a Dominion as part of the law of that Dominion, unless it is expressly declared in that Act that that Dominion has requested, and consented to, the enactment thereof.

Do you still contend that Australia, etc., were not independent?

Last edited by Doveton Sturdee; 27 Aug 17 at 04:48.. Reason: Additional comment.
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  #25  
Old 27 Aug 17, 06:14
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Your last paragraph is interesting. Would you care to enlarge upon it ?
The Statute of Westminster was not contested ,I think.
It hadn't been ratified in 1939, it became ratified in 1942.

They had no independent foreign policy, which was recognized by Menzies in 1939.

"Fellow Australians, it is my melancholy duty to inform you officially, that in consequence of a persistence by Germany in her invasion of Poland, Great Britain has declared war upon her and that, as a result, Australia is also at war"
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Old 27 Aug 17, 06:18
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Originally Posted by Doveton Stufdee
You appear to have an unhealthy 'England' fixation.
I happen to recognize that England is the biggest country in the union, and in the drivers seat, and that's more of a fact than it is a fixation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doveton Stufdee
The 'weakness' of which you speak is nothing more than your personal desire for wish fulfillment.
Now you're projecting your own issues onto me.

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Originally Posted by Doveton Stufdee
Sorry, but they were, and they did
No need to apologize we all know that they did.

I never said independent either I said “independent”. Clearly you don't nuances very well either.

So again, these countries declaring war on Germany was directly linked to England's declaration of war on Germany. Otherwise they would not have declared war on Germany in the first place, there would have been no cause for war. Unless of course Germany had declared war on them first.

That's my evidence for them not being "independent" and with strong enough ties to England to join the war against Germany.
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Old 27 Aug 17, 06:33
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Originally Posted by walle View Post
It hadn't been ratified in 1939, it became ratified in 1942.

They had no independent foreign policy, which was recognized by Menzies in 1939.

"Fellow Australians, it is my melancholy duty to inform you officially, that in consequence of a persistence by Germany in her invasion of Poland, Great Britain has declared war upon her and that, as a result, Australia is also at war"
That was merely "Pig Iron Bob " expressing his well-known Anglophilia.
Had public or popular opinion been against becoming involved it would have been a different story.
Since 1901 Australia has never been merely a branch office of Whitehall.
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Old 27 Aug 17, 07:10
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
That was merely "Pig Iron Bob " expressing his well-known Anglophilia.
Had public or popular opinion been against becoming involved it would have been a different story.
Since 1901 Australia has never been merely a branch office of Whitehall.
So what you're telling me is that he was merely expressing his fixation with everything English?

In any case.
I never said merely a branch office of Whitehall, I said no independent foreign policy, and that it was ratified in 1942.


Anyway, this is supposed to be a what if's thread, we're getting a bit off target here.
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Old 27 Aug 17, 17:25
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The minutes of the War Cabinet are freely available on line. Read these and the book by Roy Jenkins (Senior Minister in Harold Wilson's Government and exceptionally astute bloke) and I think there is only one conclusion, Churchill's Government would fall.

During the events of 26th to 28th Churchill was very careful to treat Halifax and his arguments with respect and to out argue him. The reason was Chamberlain. Churchill could ride out a Halifax resignation but not that of Chamberlain.

Chamberlain and Attlee sat on the fence with only Greenwood giving Churchill full support. Churchill knew he had won only when Chamberlain eventually was persuaded by this "the slope argument"but this still depended upon getting 30 to 50 thousand of the BEF rescued from Dunkirk.

Chamberlain was still the favourite of the majority of Conservative MPs and was arrogant enough to believe that he could negotiate the best peace with Germany.

The massive majority of the Tories would result in a Government willing to negotiate a pro-Nazi peace for a neutral Britain with Chamberlain (not Halifax) as the interim head of the Government.

The 150 thousand rescued during Cycle and Ariel were mostly non-combatant line of communication troops with the exception of the 52 Lowland Division and Arkforce (remnants of 51st Division) at Cherbourg - very small even with the addition of the Canadian Division in England to provide the nucleus of a new BEF.
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Old 27 Aug 17, 22:01
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Originally Posted by walle View Post
They had no independent foreign policy, which was recognized by Menzies in 1939.
Balls. We did that because that is who we were. If you think for one second that the Australia of 1939-45 would have stood by and let Britain face Germany without our support, then you have ZERO knowledge of who we are, or the bonds that tie us.

Faced with something similar today, I'd expect a similar speech and actions.

Oh, and read up on Billy Hughes if you want to see just how un-independent our foreign policy was in 1919.
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