HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Europe

Notices and Announcements

Europe Issues of modern Europe.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 29 Jul 17, 09:40
Surrey's Avatar
Surrey Surrey is offline
General of the Forums
UK
5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 5,732
Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500]
Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500]
[QUOTE=JFKvsNixon;3387502]Without the carriers having nuclear propulsion to provide the steam for the catapult?

From what I've read, by the time it became possible to consider electromagnetic catapults, the cost of installing the catapults would have doubled the original estimated cost of the ships. Installing the catapults would have added an estimated 2 billion for the HMS Prince of Wales and maybe 3 billion to the HMS Queen Elizabeth to the cost of building them.

Also when the decisions were made the C version was not as far along in development and testing, and it was then estimated that they couldn't enter service until after 2023 at the earliest.[/

Non nuclear powered carriers have had catapults for a very long time. Even the old Hms Ark Royal had catapults.

F35b costs 122m a plane. Super hornet costs 71m and works. The saving from using superhornets woul be more than double the cost of the catapults.
__________________
"To be free is better than to be unfree - always."
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 29 Jul 17, 11:39
phil74501's Avatar
phil74501 phil74501 is offline
Captain
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Choctaw Nation
Posts: 799
phil74501 has demonstrated strength of character [100] phil74501 has demonstrated strength of character [100] phil74501 has demonstrated strength of character [100] phil74501 has demonstrated strength of character [100] phil74501 has demonstrated strength of character [100] phil74501 has demonstrated strength of character [100] phil74501 has demonstrated strength of character [100] phil74501 has demonstrated strength of character [100]
[QUOTE=Surrey;3387746]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFKvsNixon View Post
Without the carriers having nuclear propulsion to provide the steam for the catapult?

From what I've read, by the time it became possible to consider electromagnetic catapults, the cost of installing the catapults would have doubled the original estimated cost of the ships. Installing the catapults would have added an estimated 2 billion for the HMS Prince of Wales and maybe 3 billion to the HMS Queen Elizabeth to the cost of building them.

Also when the decisions were made the C version was not as far along in development and testing, and it was then estimated that they couldn't enter service until after 2023 at the earliest.[/

Non nuclear powered carriers have had catapults for a very long time. Even the old Hms Ark Royal had catapults.

F35b costs 122m a plane. Super hornet costs 71m and works. The saving from using superhornets woul be more than double the cost of the catapults.
Just out of curiosity, at some point they'll have to go in for an overhaul, would it be possible to retrofit catapults on them in the future? Assuming it's not cost prohibitive.

Or course by then, we're talking at least 2030 or later, where will aircraft technology be by then? The F-35s could turn out to be duds. Other countries aircraft will have advanced, or be close to advancing past, the F-18 generation.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 29 Jul 17, 15:54
Surrey's Avatar
Surrey Surrey is offline
General of the Forums
UK
5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 5,732
Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500]
Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500] Surrey is a jewel in the rough [500]
[QUOTE=phil74501;3387775]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post

Just out of curiosity, at some point they'll have to go in for an overhaul, would it be possible to retrofit catapults on them in the future? Assuming it's not cost prohibitive.

Or course by then, we're talking at least 2030 or later, where will aircraft technology be by then? The F-35s could turn out to be duds. Other countries aircraft will have advanced, or be close to advancing past, the F-18 generation.
Most things are possible, just expensive.

If as seems probable the f35s are duds, having catapults creates options to get something decent.
__________________
"To be free is better than to be unfree - always."
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 30 Jul 17, 15:40
JFKvsNixon's Avatar
JFKvsNixon JFKvsNixon is offline
Captain
UK
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 711
JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
Non nuclear powered carriers have had catapults for a very long time. Even the old Hms Ark Royal had catapults.

F35b costs 122m a plane. Super hornet costs 71m and works. The saving from using superhornets woul be more than double the cost of the catapults.
I'm not arguing that it was the best decision to build the carriers without catapults, obviously all other things being equal, it would have been the desirable option.

I'm just suggesting that the decision was probably made whilst looking at the bigger picture. Catapults would have made the carriers more expensive to build and more expensive to operate and I believe that ultimately the Admiralty believed that the treasury would not have agreed to these extra costs.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 30 Jul 17, 16:15
Half Pint John's Avatar
Half Pint John Half Pint John is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: John (NO LABELS)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Posts: 47,016
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]  [+1]
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Were not both ships being built with massive cost overruns as it is?
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"

[COLOR=Blue][I]Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #21  
Old 30 Jul 17, 16:34
JFKvsNixon's Avatar
JFKvsNixon JFKvsNixon is offline
Captain
UK
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 711
JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Were not both ships being built with massive cost overruns as it is?
I've seen a 2% cost overrun predicted, this was entirely predictable, so you can see why the Admiralty/MoD could choose to keep the costs as low as possible.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 30 Jul 17, 19:27
OttoHarkaman's Avatar
OttoHarkaman OttoHarkaman is offline
Staff Sergeant
United_States
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Lexington, Kentucky
Posts: 154
OttoHarkaman is on the path to success [1-99] OttoHarkaman is on the path to success [1-99]
I don't understand why Britain is trying to antagonize China, doesn't make sense.

STOP!! caring what we think, do your own thing!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 31 Jul 17, 04:06
JFKvsNixon's Avatar
JFKvsNixon JFKvsNixon is offline
Captain
UK
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 711
JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by OttoHarkaman View Post
I don't understand why Britain is trying to antagonize China, doesn't make sense.

STOP!! caring what we think, do your own thing!
Maybe it was agreed that a multilateral approach would carry a far greater weight than a unilateral approach?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02 Aug 17, 06:06
Imperial's Avatar
Imperial Imperial is offline
General of the Forums
Romania
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Robert
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 6,121
Imperial is simply cracking [600]
Imperial is simply cracking [600] Imperial is simply cracking [600] Imperial is simply cracking [600] Imperial is simply cracking [600] Imperial is simply cracking [600] Imperial is simply cracking [600] Imperial is simply cracking [600] Imperial is simply cracking [600] Imperial is simply cracking [600] Imperial is simply cracking [600] Imperial is simply cracking [600]
China and Russia combine naval forces in the Baltic Sea

http://www.dw.com/en/china-and-russi...sea/a-39816926
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02 Aug 17, 08:51
Half Pint John's Avatar
Half Pint John Half Pint John is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: John (NO LABELS)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Posts: 47,016
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]  [+1]
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFKvsNixon View Post
Maybe it was agreed that a multilateral approach would carry a far greater weight than a unilateral approach?
The RN is no long the great navy it once was. Do you think a couple of RN ships today are really going to impress the PRC? Especaliy if they have no aircraft on them?
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"

[COLOR=Blue][I]Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02 Aug 17, 18:52
JFKvsNixon's Avatar
JFKvsNixon JFKvsNixon is offline
Captain
UK
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 711
JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
The RN is no long the great navy it once was. Do you think a couple of RN ships today are really going to impress the PRC? Especaliy if they have no aircraft on them?
The RN may not be the biggest navy in the world anymore but it is comfortably in the top 5, and lets not forget that according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies the UK spends the most on defence in Europe, and is only behind the USA, China, Russia and Saudi Arabia.

Even before the new aircraft carriers become operational, the Type 45 destroyers, the Astute class attack submarine and the Vanguard class ballistic missile submarines all carry a sizeable punch.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03 Aug 17, 03:27
Half Pint John's Avatar
Half Pint John Half Pint John is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: John (NO LABELS)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Posts: 47,016
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]  [+1]
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
UK's 6billion fleet of Type 45 destroyers spend 1,515 days at port ...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...days-port.html
Sep 16, 2016 ... Navy farce: Britain's new 6billion fleet of Type 45 destroyers spend more than TWICE as much time berthed in UK ports than 'out and doing ...


Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyers 'so noisy Russians can hear them ...
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/roya...ail/story.html
Feb 5, 2017 ... The Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyers are so noisy they can be heard by Russian submarines 100 miles away, a former senior naval officer has ...

Slow, leaky, rusty: Britain's 10bn submarine beset by design flaws

Royal Navy's HMS Astute 'has a V8 engine with a Morris Minor gearbox'
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"

[COLOR=Blue][I]Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03 Aug 17, 05:34
JFKvsNixon's Avatar
JFKvsNixon JFKvsNixon is offline
Captain
UK
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 711
JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99] JFKvsNixon is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
UK's 6billion fleet of Type 45 destroyers spend 1,515 days at port ...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...days-port.html
Sep 16, 2016 ... Navy farce: Britain's new 6billion fleet of Type 45 destroyers spend more than TWICE as much time berthed in UK ports than 'out and doing ...


Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyers 'so noisy Russians can hear them ...
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/roya...ail/story.html
Feb 5, 2017 ... The Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyers are so noisy they can be heard by Russian submarines 100 miles away, a former senior naval officer has ...

Slow, leaky, rusty: Britain's 10bn submarine beset by design flaws

Royal Navy's HMS Astute 'has a V8 engine with a Morris Minor gearbox'
It's a nice surprise that you're a regular reader of my old local newspaper, the Plymouth Evening Herald!

Is it possible for any defensive system not to have it's teething problems and which feeds it critics, especially in the world of defence contractors? If we were to listen to the critics then every ship, plane, tank etc would be considered rubbish.

However, it needs to be noted that your claim that the RN is not what it used to be can probable be thrown at every other navy in the world bar the Chinese.

Last edited by JFKvsNixon; 03 Aug 17 at 05:42..
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03 Aug 17, 14:11
Half Pint John's Avatar
Half Pint John Half Pint John is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: John (NO LABELS)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Posts: 47,016
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]  [+1]
Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Half Pint John has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
I had no idea the problems the Type 45 or the Sub were having. I looked both classes up to be half way informed. Do note the neg comments come from UK sources.
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"

[COLOR=Blue][I]Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

Last edited by Half Pint John; 03 Aug 17 at 15:53..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03 Aug 17, 14:16
johns624's Avatar
johns624 johns624 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,309
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] johns624 has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
I had know idea the problems the Type 45 or the Sub were having. I looked both classes up to be half way informed. Do note the neg comments come from UK sources.
What's sad and ironic is that the two branches of the British military who have done the most work in the last 30 years (the RN and Army) seem to always get the short end of the financial stick. Yet, the RAF always seems to get what they want.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 00:07.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.