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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines

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Alternate Timelines The plausible "what if's" of military history.

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  #46  
Old 26 Jun 17, 13:08
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didn't Stalin himself after the war quoted that was the 250.000+ US trucks and 2,7 billion liters of gas that allowed USSR march from Stalingrad to Berlin? i think mr. Putin get his facts straight, as his suits!
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  #47  
Old 26 Jun 17, 13:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
With the Soviets withdrawing behind the Urals and the Germans required to police a piece of land about the size of Europe and still be ready for a Russian counterattack I don't them being happy in the long run.
exactly....
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  #48  
Old 26 Jun 17, 13:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Meh.
Fact: your car's tank is totally empty.
Purpose: assessing whether you get to reach your destination with your car, without putting more gas in the tank. Yes or no?
Context: for instance, why is the tank empty? You forgot to fill it? Somebody pumped and stole your fuel? Your tank has a hole into it? All of the above are irrelevant - to answering the question.

The fact that your tank is empty, for the purpose of assessing your chances to reach your destination with your car, without putting more fuel into it, is sufficient and needs no context. Yes, for a more accurate assessment of your overall situation, context would be useful, if not needed. But that depends on defining the purpose of your analysis.
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  #49  
Old 26 Jun 17, 13:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt tank 152 View Post
didn't Stalin himself after the war quoted that was the 250.000+ US trucks and 2,7 billion liters of gas that allowed USSR march from Stalingrad to Berlin?
Stalin and other people like him might say all sort of things. Often, at different times, they might say the contrary of what they had already said.

That said, sure. Arriving in Berlin in that time required the trucks, in particular, as well as other supplies that were lend-leased. The question would be whether without those supplies, the Soviets would arrive in Berlin never - or simply at a later time than in history.
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  #50  
Old 26 Jun 17, 14:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianE View Post
1) Not a Nazi government
2) A much more clever German foriegn policy where it builds a world wide anti communist alliance.
3) Fix Germany's economic and trade issues
4) Poland, Hungary, Romania and Finland are active allies while France and the UK are not in opposition.
5) A policy of liberation not exploitation. Setting up true independent governments for Ukraine, Belorussia, Armenia, Georgia, etc.
6) An effective anti communist propaganda campaign that when coupled with 5 will see Red Army desertions rise to catastrophic levels.
Unlikely that if point one applied any of the others would be relevant anyway.
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  #51  
Old 26 Jun 17, 14:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt tank 152 View Post
didn't Stalin himself after the war quoted that was the 250.000+ US trucks and 2,7 billion liters of gas that allowed USSR march from Stalingrad to Berlin?
I doubt that. I mean doubt that he said that.
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  #52  
Old 26 Jun 17, 14:53
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This is the official Lend Lease list:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WR...6315/lend.html
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  #53  
Old 26 Jun 17, 15:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
This is the official Lend Lease list:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WR...6315/lend.html
Its not just what was sent but WHEN it was sent. This site breaks down when stuff was sent: http://www.o5m6.de/Routes.html

If anything was outcome changing it would have have to been in the pre lend lease period or in the first protocol. Everything after that just accelerated the Naxi's demise.
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  #54  
Old 26 Jun 17, 15:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Can you please give some figures and sources?
A lot to write and to quote, too much for this topic, I think. Ok, if we take fuel production than we've got the following stats:
Total oil production in the USSR in 1941 - 33 million ton
Of which a minor part was exported and the bulk was consumed inside the country.
Oil consumption in Germany in 1941 - 8.1 million ton. From own production, export and usage of previously accumulated stocks.
Ostensibly the ratio is 4:1. However if we look at gasoline then the situation is different.
Aviation gasoline: Soviet production - 1270 thousand tons/German production, export and stocks usage 1260 thousand tons
Motor gasoline: Soviet production - 2980 thousand tons/German production, export and stocks usage 2540 thousand tons.
Approximately equal status.
If we take purely military consumption in 1941 then corresponding numbers are
Aviation gasoline - 830 thousand tons USSR/1160 thousand tons German
Motor gasoline - 1130 thousand tons USSR/1609 thousand tons Germany

In the years that followed Germany continued to step up own fuel production bother from synthetic plants and from domestic oil wells until strategic air campaign took its toll in mid-1944. As a result consumption of fuel in 1942-1943 was at least not smaller than in 1941. On the other hand the Soviet oil and fuel production dropped to the 60% of the per-war level. So whereas Western Allies were superior in availability of gasoline over Germany the Soviet Union simply wasn't.
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  #55  
Old 26 Jun 17, 15:27
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Don't forget the Soviets were sending oil production from the Polish oil fields to Germany until Barbarossa happened.

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  #56  
Old 26 Jun 17, 15:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
Fact: your car's tank is totally empty.
Purpose: assessing whether you get to reach your destination with your car, without putting more gas in the tank. Yes or no?
Context: for instance, why is the tank empty? You forgot to fill it? Somebody pumped and stole your fuel? Your tank has a hole into it? All of the above are irrelevant - to answering the question.

The fact that your tank is empty, for the purpose of assessing your chances to reach your destination with your car, without putting more fuel into it, is sufficient and needs no context. Yes, for a more accurate assessment of your overall situation, context would be useful, if not needed. But that depends on defining the purpose of your analysis.
Anything that makes you happy, of course.
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  #57  
Old 26 Jun 17, 15:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Polish oil fields
Generally negligible.
As said above oil export was small compared with total production - some hundreds thousand tons annually.
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  #58  
Old 26 Jun 17, 15:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
This is the official Lend Lease list:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WR...6315/lend.html
Not really. This is the official list: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/LL-Ship/
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  #59  
Old 26 Jun 17, 15:43
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Still, it was easier to export it into Germany instead of converting the rail lines in Eastern Poland to Soviet Gauge. This agreement was made when the Soviet and Germans decided to divide Poland between them.

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  #60  
Old 26 Jun 17, 16:39
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Railroads were converted to a Russian gauge long-long before June 1941. Soviet-German trade deal was struck in February 1940 and large oil deliveries started only after that. Again, oil fields in Western Ukraine were a factor of very minor importance, they provided less than 1% of the Soviet oil.
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