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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines

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Alternate Timelines The plausible "what if's" of military history.

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  #16  
Old 25 Jun 17, 09:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
Isn't propaganda great!

Without the western Allies the Russians would be all speaking German.
What a fatuous remark! writers like Tooze etc are not propagandist but serious researchers who back up their findings with copious evidence.
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  #17  
Old 25 Jun 17, 09:30
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Sure they do, then they add opinion that skews the results. The Germans had a better chance of winning than the Russians from the onset. However, it depends greatly on how you look at it, does the study consider Germany's earlier war aims? Those would be important for resources needed to conduct a long drawn out war, otherwise Russia would have had the upper hand.

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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
What a fatuous remark! writers like Tooze etc are not propagandist but serious researchers who back up their findings with copious evidence.
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  #18  
Old 25 Jun 17, 10:33
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Russia wasn't giving up- and had a lot more people and territory
..if Russia couldn't defeat tiny Afghanistan in the 80s
and the US couldn't hold SVietnam--with total air and naval superiority/etc
--what makes anybody think Germany could defeat Russia?
--the critical point is Russia was not going to give up ....Germany didn't surrender till 2 armies had taken control of the country, and it's cities bombed to hell
....Japan didn't give up till their country was blockaded, bombed to hell, etc..even then, a lot of high ranking Japanese did not want to surrrender
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  #19  
Old 25 Jun 17, 14:18
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Totally different conflicts, but when comparing the Germany military vs the Soviet military from 1939 to 1942 the Germans win hands down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
Russia wasn't giving up- and had a lot more people and territory
..if Russia couldn't defeat tiny Afghanistan in the 80s
and the US couldn't hold SVietnam--with total air and naval superiority/etc
--what makes anybody think Germany could defeat Russia?
--the critical point is Russia was not going to give up ....Germany didn't surrender till 2 armies had taken control of the country, and it's cities bombed to hell
....Japan didn't give up till their country was blockaded, bombed to hell, etc..even then, a lot of high ranking Japanese did not want to surrrender
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  #20  
Old 25 Jun 17, 15:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
In a long war of attrition Germany was going to loose as she simply did not have the resources over the long term either to make what she needed or to buy it if there was no blockade.
The only resource in which Germany was clearly inferior to the SU was population/manpower. German industry was stronger, they produced more coal, steal, electric power, aluminium, explosives and other chemicals. They had less oil than the Soviet Union but were even in output of military critical oil products (gasoline). The fact that Germany stepped up production of most military items after June 1941 (some manifold) speaks for itself. That German industrial mobilization was historically too slow and armament policies - incoherent is another question.
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Old 25 Jun 17, 16:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
The only resource in which Germany was clearly inferior to the SU was population/manpower. German industry was stronger, they produced more coal, steal, electric power, aluminium, explosives and other chemicals. They had less oil than the Soviet Union but were even in output of military critical oil products (gasoline). The fact that Germany stepped up production of most military items after June 1941 (some manifold) speaks for itself. That German industrial mobilization was historically too slow and armament policies - incoherent is another question.
Can you please give some figures and sources? And please distingish between current production and reserves.
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  #22  
Old 25 Jun 17, 17:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
Yes but your opinion still presents the same problem time and casualties.

Russia could have done it alone but, IMHO,added at least one year at minimum to the war costing Russia many more military and civilian casualties and also allowing the Nazi regime to keep sending innocents to the gas chambers.

UK by itself, maybe...IMO not possible and even if so would have added years to the conflict. Same goes for the U.S.A....Don't forget both of these countries were still dealing with the Japanese in the PTO. Together, IMHO, they would have eventually achieved victory but not standing alone like Russia. Either case would have added years (one could not know how many for a certainty) to the conflict, costing many lives of military and civilians.

Many overlook the cost of civilian lives and the damage associated with it that continues years after the conflict ends. As an example, the 3 month struggle to take Okinawa from the Japanese caused the deaths of approximately 150,000 innocent Okinawan people.

The Western Allies were very fortunate to have Stalin, although a ruthless totalitarian megalomaniac who slaughtered millions of his own people, and his Red Army on its side.

Regards,Kurt
I appreciate your considerations, but you're allowing Germany to have allies, and not vice versa.
And if the Japanese enter the war, what's your scenario? Attacking only Pearl Harbor and Philippines, or only Malaya and Hong Kong? Or both? (You meant "both", am I right?)

AFAIK, even the German leadership tried hard to elude a long lasting war of attrition because they were sure they would lose.



…when question emerges concerning "how many years, if…", I'd like to remember the fact that Poland was planning to attack Germany in 1933. Quite an interesting turn of events it might have been if Poles had neglected French objections and taken Berlin putting Hitler and Co under arrest.
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  #23  
Old 25 Jun 17, 17:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
The only resource in which Germany was clearly inferior to the SU was population/manpower. German industry was stronger, they produced more coal, steal, electric power, aluminium, explosives and other chemicals. They had less oil than the Soviet Union but were even in output of military critical oil products (gasoline). The fact that Germany stepped up production of most military items after June 1941 (some manifold) speaks for itself. That German industrial mobilization was historically too slow and armament policies - incoherent is another question.
I don't know if we can consider that German industrial mobilization was too slow. Here is a reflexion about German tank production in WW2. They get what they planned to get. I doubt that that it was possible to produce mre.

http://paul-atrydes.livejournal.com/46199.html
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  #24  
Old 25 Jun 17, 18:16
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The Germans did not go to a total war footing until several years in the war had passed. It would seem they wanted to produce some consumer goods for the civilians. I would say the Nazi party was trying to keep the Frauleins happy? Food production fell off as manpower and trucks were taken away from Agriculture. As in WWI, a lot of the harvest was lost before it could make it to the railheads. A lot of the farm animals were slaughtered so they could use the feed grain for other uses.

As far as I know the USSR went to a total war economic production very quickly. A lot of production was lost when a number of plants were relocated to the East. I would say manpower was an issue after a couple of years as the Males of military age were put into the military. Women and children do not produce labor as well as adult males.

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Old 25 Jun 17, 18:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
If you study economics, Tooze proves that the Nazi's could not win, they would implode.

OTOH, as long as Britain did not cave, its economy would outlast Germany's.

WW2 did not need even the US or USSR to defeat the Nazi's. but hindsight is everything.
Churchill did not seem to believe that at the time. The over-extension of Germany was in the USSR, not North Africa.
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Old 25 Jun 17, 18:22
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Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
Totally different conflicts, but when comparing the Germany military vs the Soviet military from 1939 to 1942 the Germans win hands down.
if huge Russia and huge America couldn't win against little Afghanistan and little Nam, how can you expect smaller Germany to win against much larger Russia?
can anyone please explain a reasonable scenario where Germany would would win?
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Old 25 Jun 17, 18:54
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Opinions are a dime a dozen.
The fact is Russia didn't defeat Germany without our aid, or without Great Britain's help for that matter.
The question Russians should ask is, how well would the Russian army been if it had not been for Stalin's paranoia and his butchering of his own officer corps before and during the war?
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Old 25 Jun 17, 19:04
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With the Soviets withdrawing behind the Urals and the Germans required to police a piece of land about the size of Europe and still be ready for a Russian counterattack I don't them being happy in the long run.
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Old 25 Jun 17, 19:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
Opinions are a dime a dozen.
The fact is Russia didn't defeat Germany without our aid, or without Great Britain's help for that matter.
The question Russians should ask is, how well would the Russian army been if it had not been for Stalin's paranoia and his butchering of his own officer corps before and during the war?
This is to many variables in this equation. There can be two completely opposite answers and they can be both perfectly correct.
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Old 25 Jun 17, 19:28
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The information that convince me of the chance existing that the Soviet Union could have won it alone is the number of German divisions on the Eastern Front compared to the number on the Western Front. I failed to understand how all the German divisions on the Western Front could have made much difference in the ultimate outcome be it a Russia victory or a forced settlement upon the defeated Germany upon nearing destruction. There is the factor of upon the liberation of Poland and Rumania of those thousands who flocked to Russian and allies enrollment into military ranks to fight the Germans. Endless numbers of angry people.
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