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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Vietnam War

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Vietnam War The Battle for Vietnam. .

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  #76  
Old 20 Sep 17, 13:49
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May I enlighten?

That's a corpsman working on a Marine.NET on the helmet,(Navy anythings possible)just a good idea.Since the jarhead with the blanket is also carrying a poncho liner,I'd say the BLANKET was used to keep warm or maybe body extraction.I never used one but could have used one in north quang tri province at night.NO WEAPON,none needed here.PROTECTIVE MASK CARRIER.Anyones guess.Could be full of c-rats,ammo or letters from home or a protective mask. Your Welcome
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Last edited by hankwill; 20 Sep 17 at 13:55..
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  #77  
Old 20 Sep 17, 13:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
I didn't ask then about how we would win. Now I have come to the conclusion that it wasn't winnable and not worth fighting in the first place.
Though I possess a different opinion on the latter subject, I won't presume to debate you, but on the latter, when it came out that the National Command Authority had suspected as early as 1965 that just about any war in Viet Nam was unwinnable, the level of bitterness must have been off the charts. The notion that a political leadership can enter its country into a questionable war for no other reason than to bolster its political standing ("what this country needs is a short, victorious war to stem the tide of revolution") is hardly new, but when it happens to you -- when it's your cherry that's getting broken, and so violently at that -- it's just impossible to regain that faith so dramatically lost. Whoever it was who said "you can't go back" didn't know the half of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
I don't want us to be world policemen. Let China of NZ or Zimbabwe take over the role.
Maybe I can be accused of playing Devil's Advocate here, but the last time the US let some one else play global cop, the whole of Europe bickered amongst themselves while Adolf Hitler took a fat wet bite out of Czechoslovakia. That didn't turn out too well either.

Maybe Vietnam was the right thing to do, and maybe it wasn't. Maybe we should be a good deal more selective about which windmills with which we choose to tilt, but clearly simply abdicating our role on the world stage -- as tempting as it may be -- isn't really a viable option.

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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
By the time those two rolled around I wasn't as blue eyed and also what they said wasn't worth using as any sort of positive.
Perhaps I made my point poorly -- or rather, I could have posed my question better -- but we know that the LBJ and Nixon guys weren't the first political leaders to lie to their people about issues as weighty as war and peace. No one today is griping about Wm McKinley and Teddy Roosevelt leading us into highly questionable wars, despite the fact that there were no shortage of questions at the time. Could it be that they were let off the hook simply because they won, while LBJ and Nixon lost?
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  #78  
Old 20 Sep 17, 14:16
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Were you alive when TR was President? Neither was I. LBJ and Nixon lived in a different time were the news showed up the next day in the living rooms of millions around the World. TR and McKinley would have had the some sort of close observation and people might have another opinion of them.
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  #79  
Old 20 Sep 17, 15:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankwill View Post
That's a corpsman working on a Marine.NET on the helmet,(Navy anythings possible)just a good idea.Since the jarhead with the blanket is also carrying a poncho liner,I'd say the BLANKET was used to keep warm or maybe body extraction.I never used one but could have used one in north quang tri province at night.NO WEAPON,none needed here.PROTECTIVE MASK CARRIER.Anyones guess.Could be full of c-rats,ammo or letters from home or a protective mask. Your Welcome
Blanket can also make the deck of a boat easier to sleep on. Every little bit counts for twenty.
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  #80  
Old 20 Sep 17, 15:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
My point is our intelligence bureaucracies have a long and storied record of training the very brightest and sending them into very dangerous situations to gather detailed data and develop indepth reports,
Which the scum in the Pentagon and Langley usually ignore for political expediency and to advance their careers.
It is easy to brush aside criticism of thier failure with the petty excuse that we are only told of the failures.
Those failures have been themselves swept under the rug, written in blood from Korea, to the Bay of Pigs, to the support of ruthless dictators in South America, Panama, So. Vietnam, to the training arming and funding of Afghanistan "freedom fighters" AKA the Taliban, to the failure to detect the 9/11 attacks and the WMD hard sell, just to name a few, I would pile on with the long winded story of the billions spent developing sophisticated submarines and equipment to tape Russian communications lines that lay on the bottom of Russian waters, while the Russian learned about it for 50K and feed us phony intelligence for years....
Just saying..
You know there is a white world (open press) and a black world (classified clandestine and covert)?

Have you worked for any length of time in the black world?
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  #81  
Old 20 Sep 17, 17:03
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This documentary will probably be as big as the one he did on the Civil War.
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  #82  
Old 20 Sep 17, 17:06
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Please keep in mind that I'm not looking to pick a fight or be snarky. You grew up in a world where government was your friend. I grew up in the aftermath of that. I take it for granted that government is untrustworthy: you had to learn that. Perhaps even today your natural response is to trust government, while mine is the very opposite. That might be the difference in the eras in which we came of age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Were you alive when TR was President? Neither was I. LBJ and Nixon lived in a different time were the news showed up the next day in the living rooms of millions around the World. TR and McKinley would have had the some sort of close observation and people might have another opinion of them.
The medium is the message - Marshall McLuhan

Don't get me wrong: the war in the PI was quite unpopular -- but it wasn't beamed into living rooms on a nightly basis. That was a pressure that TR didn't have to face. But whose to blame for the farce of these bad wars: the political leadership, or the electorate that put those ago cases into office? Much like Geo W Bush during the run-up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, LBJ enjoyed very strong polling numbers in the wake of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and the deployment of the first two Marine battalions to Da Nang, at least according to Ken Burns & Co last night. Perhaps one can argue that the American people could be forgiven their ignorance about the situation in Viet Nam back in 1965 -- but no such argument can be posited in 2003. I do believe that, when all the dust is settled, the internet will prove to be even more impactful than Gutenberg's printing press. Never before has so much useful information been so available to so many than ever before. At your fingertips is practically the whole of the Library of Congress -- and you don't have to leave your home. And since 2003, the smartphone has brought that capability right to your shirt pocket. Almost anything that I can possibly want to know about Iraq I can obtain with just a few swipes and/or keystrokes. Yet the great majority of internet use is still in pursuit of cat videos, gambling, and pornography. Despite the vast quantity of information so easily available, we're still as ignorant as we've ever been. That being the case, I have a hard time sympathizing with a people who approved the '03 Iraq invasion by a two-to-one margin, who voted for Bush in '04 and Obama in '08 and Trump in '16.

A quarter-century ago I came home and believed that leaders like Norman Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell, and even Richard Ceney and Geo HW Bush and Ronald Regan, had learned some real lessons from Viet Nam, and that as soldiers and as civilians we could be at least somewhat confident that such goatfcks would not be repeated. Geo W Bush proved that hope grossly misplaced. Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld pointedly dismissed the "Powell Doctrine" -- and the Republican "faithful" ate that sht up like trained seals. After five years of metallic coffins flying into Dover AFB a bunch of them voted for Barack Obama. So don't ask why I say that I'll break my kids' legs if they ever express an interest in enlisting or earning commissions: this country -- these people -- have proven themselves unworthy of my children's services, my children's efforts, my children's sacrifice. Members of my family have served this country since before this country even existed, going back to the French & Indian War. I see sunshine patriots and fellow travelers alike, blathering all too freely about how other people should do this, and other people should do that. From where I sit, it's their turn to starting taking oaths. I mean, why on earth should I want to defend a people who don't merely not know the truth, but who reject the truth when it stares them in the face, who attack those who'd tell them the truth while they lionize those who outright and unambiguously lie to them? Aren't these people who deserve their fate? When the medium makes learning truth so friggin' easy and you still reject it, don't you deserve the ultimate Darwin Award?
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  #83  
Old 20 Sep 17, 18:35
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"Mogie", ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Please keep in mind that I'm not looking to pick a fight or be snarky. You grew up in a world where government was your friend. I grew up in the aftermath of that. I take it for granted that government is untrustworthy: you had to learn that. Perhaps even today your natural response is to trust government, while mine is the very opposite. That might be the difference in the eras in which we came of age.



The medium is the message - Marshall McLuhan

Don't get me wrong: the war in the PI was quite unpopular -- but it wasn't beamed into living rooms on a nightly basis. That was a pressure that TR didn't have to face. But whose to blame for the farce of these bad wars: the political leadership, or the electorate that put those ago cases into office? Much like Geo W Bush during the run-up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, LBJ enjoyed very strong polling numbers in the wake of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and the deployment of the first two Marine battalions to Da Nang, at least according to Ken Burns & Co last night. Perhaps one can argue that the American people could be forgiven their ignorance about the situation in Viet Nam back in 1965 -- but no such argument can be posited in 2003. I do believe that, when all the dust is settled, the internet will prove to be even more impactful than Gutenberg's printing press. Never before has so much useful information been so available to so many than ever before. At your fingertips is practically the whole of the Library of Congress -- and you don't have to leave your home. And since 2003, the smartphone has brought that capability right to your shirt pocket. Almost anything that I can possibly want to know about Iraq I can obtain with just a few swipes and/or keystrokes. Yet the great majority of internet use is still in pursuit of cat videos, gambling, and pornography. Despite the vast quantity of information so easily available, we're still as ignorant as we've ever been. That being the case, I have a hard time sympathizing with a people who approved the '03 Iraq invasion by a two-to-one margin, who voted for Bush in '04 and Obama in '08 and Trump in '16.

A quarter-century ago I came home and believed that leaders like Norman Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell, and even Richard Ceney and Geo HW Bush and Ronald Regan, had learned some real lessons from Viet Nam, and that as soldiers and as civilians we could be at least somewhat confident that such goatfcks would not be repeated. Geo W Bush proved that hope grossly misplaced. Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld pointedly dismissed the "Powell Doctrine" -- and the Republican "faithful" ate that sht up like trained seals. After five years of metallic coffins flying into Dover AFB a bunch of them voted for Barack Obama. So don't ask why I say that I'll break my kids' legs if they ever express an interest in enlisting or earning commissions: this country -- these people -- have proven themselves unworthy of my children's services, my children's efforts, my children's sacrifice. Members of my family have served this country since before this country even existed, going back to the French & Indian War. I see sunshine patriots and fellow travelers alike, blathering all too freely about how other people should do this, and other people should do that. From where I sit, it's their turn to starting taking oaths. I mean, why on earth should I want to defend a people who don't merely not know the truth, but who reject the truth when it stares them in the face, who attack those who'd tell them the truth while they lionize those who outright and unambiguously lie to them? Aren't these people who deserve their fate? When the medium makes learning truth so friggin' easy and you still reject it, don't you deserve the ultimate Darwin Award?
... as in Denton "Mogie" Crocker, who's story was picked up by Burns & Novick as a corner stone to their VN story, to be representative of so many idealistic American youths, who as young men joined US services to fight communism in Vietnam, was first featured in last night's episode i.e. #3. His mother, Jean-Marie, who's also featured, wrote a wonderful memoir of her son, titled "Son of the Cold War, A Personal History", which can be found in full here:

https://memory.loc.gov/diglib/vhp-st...r?ID=pm0001001

Give it a good look, I'm sure Mogie's story, and that of the Crocker family will continue tonight.
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  #84  
Old 20 Sep 17, 19:18
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Cool to see this thread finally come alive. Of course it helps when the doc actually started. Enjoying all your comments. Finally got to see episode 1 today. Ken gave Rosevelt a velvet glove pass, truth is Rosevelt didn't have a clue about Viet Nam and didn't know what to do about it in early talks. The Chinese didn't want to have nothing to do with Viet Nam early on. Ball got rolling under Truman. Then Eisenhower. Of course Ken for the most part, pretty much ignores them and gets to Kennedy as soon as possible. Geez, if only that OSS agent hadn't been killed by the Viet Minh. What a freakin tragedy.
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  #85  
Old 20 Sep 17, 19:39
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I think FDR was aware of Indochina, the Japanese invasion forces for Malaya sailed from Saigon and Danang. We embargoed oil to Japan because they occupied the area along the Chinese border, to better invade Southern China.
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  #86  
Old 20 Sep 17, 20:45
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Yeah, that is probably Exercise Reforger.

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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Interesting. Is this supposed to be in Nam? What unit? Where did the camo net on the helmet come from. Wool blanket in the field? No weapon but carrying the M-17?

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  #87  
Old 20 Sep 17, 20:56
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Good call, those guys are wearing Navy foul weather Deck Jackets. Northern highlands was damp and cold, January through March temptures as low as 43 degrees. Wool blanket, why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hankwill View Post
That's a corpsman working on a Marine.NET on the helmet,(Navy anythings possible)just a good idea.Since the jarhead with the blanket is also carrying a poncho liner,I'd say the BLANKET was used to keep warm or maybe body extraction.I never used one but could have used one in north quang tri province at night.NO WEAPON,none needed here.PROTECTIVE MASK CARRIER.Anyones guess.Could be full of c-rats,ammo or letters from home or a protective mask. Your Welcome
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  #88  
Old 20 Sep 17, 21:33
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I was disappointed the Galloway segments were a rehash from HD - Tonight they were on the segment about the uber connected getting the cush reserve spots- Was that a picture of GW when he was in the air guard they slid in there? I think it was - Pretty sure I've seen that one before. Credit Ken for that one LOL!

I really can't bark about their balance. The ani-war stuff was as much a part of it as the war itself, at least to these people but the lack of patriotism was great dishonor.
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Old 20 Sep 17, 22:00
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The whole thing is the same whole Piece of sh-t that PBS has been showing for years, showing Marines in segments when it is actually Army and visa versa, I appreciate the causes of the war which I didn't know anything about, but the lying that was going on 0n both sides makes me want to puke ,however since it was so long ago, I really don't give a sh-t, it is what it is!
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Old 20 Sep 17, 22:08
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Some old ****, different day. Thank a liberal for showing us our history.

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The whole thing is the same whole Piece of sh-t that PBS has been showing for years, showing Marines in segments when it is actually Army and visa versa, I appreciate the causes of the war which I didn't know anything about, but the lying that was going on 0n both sides makes me want to puke ,however since it was so long ago, I really don't give a sh-t, it is what it is!
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My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
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