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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Vietnam War

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Vietnam War The Battle for Vietnam. .

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  #61  
Old 20 Sep 17, 09:36
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Watergate did it for me.
With Nixon I lost a lot of faith in our government then and until today.
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  #62  
Old 20 Sep 17, 10:17
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With Nixon I lost a lot of faith in our government then and until today.
Do we still have a government? I thought we just went into a plutocracy.
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  #63  
Old 20 Sep 17, 11:36
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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
The CIA and DoD are not independent agency.

Vietnam shattered the myth, not just that the government was always truthful, but that it would never demand of its young men that they fight and perhaps die to prolong a war that the politicians could not end in a politically convenient fashion.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/v...icle-1.3504827

Welcome to Afghanistan
Indeed. Ike was right, Beware of the industrial military industry, which unfortunately, our intelligence agencies are part of.
I believe there are some very smart dedicated and well meaning men and women in our alphabet systems, just as in the military.
Unfortunately, once the bureaucrats become entrenched expanding budgets and political influence of agency leaders become the prime mission.
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  #64  
Old 20 Sep 17, 11:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
With Nixon I lost a lot of faith in our government then and until today.
Nixon was merely the cherry on the cake. McNamara did it for me, his maniacal obsession with numbers combined with his ice cold propensity for ignoring the human element in those equations, and his Svengali like control over politicians was more terrifying than Dr. Strangelove.
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  #65  
Old 20 Sep 17, 11:47
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He was mild compared to the Democrats of today.

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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
With Nixon I lost a lot of faith in our government then and until today.
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  #66  
Old 20 Sep 17, 11:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
He was mild compared to the Democrats of today.
How about "He was mild compared to the politicians of today."

But I had little use for Nixon after he pardoned the draft dodgers. It was too much of an affront to all those thousands of U.S. servicemen who were wounded, died, or were crippled for life due to their service during the Vietnam conflict.
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  #67  
Old 20 Sep 17, 12:17
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I'm watching it and find it interesting. I get the sense there is more Lynn Novick than Ken Burns here, but he has his name on it.
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  #68  
Old 20 Sep 17, 12:58
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Originally Posted by Greybriar View Post
. . . . But I had little use for Nixon after he pardoned the draft dodgers. It was too much of an affront to all those thousands of U.S. servicemen who were wounded, died, or were crippled for life due to their service during the Vietnam conflict.
I think that it was Jimmy Carter who pardoned the draft-dodgers, and it was part of a deal in which Robert E Lee's US citizenship was restored. I guess that after Watergate and Gerald Ford's subsequent blanket pardon of Richard Nixon, a mood of reconciliation swept the nation.

Or something like that.
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  #69  
Old 20 Sep 17, 12:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
Nixon was merely the cherry on the cake. McNamara did it for me, his maniacal obsession with numbers combined with his ice cold propensity for ignoring the human element in those equations, and his Svengali like control over politicians was more terrifying than Dr. Strangelove.
With Nixon I mean the system in general.

Up until then I was a GOP voted straight ballot. Afterward independent and vote the issue and NEVER AGAIN support a party.

The last President that I really had respect for was IKE but then I wasn't even of voting age.

He and Kennedy are the only two that ever said any thing that I can really remember. JFK's "don't ask your country etc" and Ike's warning.
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  #70  
Old 20 Sep 17, 13:17
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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
He and Kennedy are the only two that ever said any thing that I can really remember. JFK's "don't ask your country etc" and Ike's warning.
What? You don't remember LBJ's "we are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"? How about something of more recent vintage, like Bill Clinton's "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"?

Robert A Caro opened his Years of Lyndon Johnson noting how before Viet Nam it never occurred to the overwhelming majority of Americans to doubt their president. Since Viet Nam, however, taking a president at face value is considered patently absurd. If there's a lack of faith in this country, it's because the politicians did their level best to destroy people's faith, and they've been doubling-down ever since.

But as historians -- and let's be honest here, that all who participate on these forums and share their experiences and observations are historians, at least of a sort -- we're obliged to remember that political mendacity is as old as the written word. Thucydides laid it out quite well 2,400 years ago. So too did Tacitus. More recently we knew even during his lifetime that FDR was an inveterate liar: sonofabitch couldn't buy a handshake during his time in Albany -- and if you're known as a liar in Albany, then you've got a shot at the world heavyweight championship. So perhaps -- perhaps -- LBJ's and Nixon's only crimes weren't in the lieing, but in the losing. Had they won the Vietnam War, they'd possibly both be lionized today, as FDR and Abraham Lincoln are.
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  #71  
Old 20 Sep 17, 13:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
I got a pith helmet as well.

"Everybody goes home."
Wore your knees out.
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  #72  
Old 20 Sep 17, 13:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
What? You don't remember LBJ's "we are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"? How about something of more recent vintage, like Bill Clinton's "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"?

Robert A Caro opened his Years of Lyndon Johnson noting how before Viet Nam it never occurred to the overwhelming majority of Americans to doubt their president. Since Viet Nam, however, taking a president at face value is considered patently absurd. If there's a lack of faith in this country, it's because the politicians did their level best to destroy people's faith, and they've been doubling-down ever since.

But as historians -- and let's be honest here, that all who participate on these forums and share their experiences and observations are historians, at least of a sort -- we're obliged to remember that political mendacity is as old as the written word. Thucydides laid it out quite well 2,400 years ago. So too did Tacitus. More recently we knew even during his lifetime that FDR was an inveterate liar: sonofabitch couldn't buy a handshake during his time in Albany -- and if you're known as a liar in Albany, then you've got a shot at the world heavyweight championship. So perhaps -- perhaps -- LBJ's and Nixon's only crimes weren't in the lieing, but in the losing. Had they won the Vietnam War, they'd possibly both be lionized today, as FDR and Abraham Lincoln are.
I didn't ask then about how we would win. Now I have come to the conclusion that it wasn't winnable and not worth fighting in the first place.

I don't want us to be world policemen. Let China of NZ or Zimbabwe take over the role.

By the time those two rolled around I wasn't as blue eyed and also what they said wasn't worth using as any sort of positive.

The last one, MLK, offered some positive guidance in his I had a dream speech.
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  #73  
Old 20 Sep 17, 13:54
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How about "He was mild compared to the politicians of today."
Insufficiently polarized.
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  #74  
Old 20 Sep 17, 13:56
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Interesting. Is this supposed to be in Nam? What unit? Where did the camo net on the helmet come from. Wool blanket in the field? No weapon but carrying the M-17?

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Old 20 Sep 17, 13:57
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I would suggest ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by III Corps View Post
I'm watching it and find it interesting. I get the sense there is more Lynn Novick than Ken Burns here, but he has his name on it.
... that there's more Geoffrey Ward here than either Burns or Novick; his name's on the script, and on the 640 pages of "The Vietnam War: An Intimate History", the book that accompanies the series, and when it comes to writing, Ward's "Mr. PBS".
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