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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Vietnam War

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Vietnam War The Battle for Vietnam. .

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  #46  
Old 19 Sep 17, 13:49
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Oh yes,De Gaulle,the guy who pulled France out of N.A.T.O. (in 1965)after they sent my 17 year old a$$ over to Europe to protect his country.
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  #47  
Old 19 Sep 17, 13:54
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Countries have interests, not friends. It was in our interest to have the French as an ally in Europe after WWII. All else follows from that.
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  #48  
Old 19 Sep 17, 14:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebfrench76 View Post
De Gaulle is an icon.Don't touch an icon Marc .Period.
Joking.He was the man of June the 18th ,1940, and the craftman of France's rebirth.That excepted , he was a sneaky politician, like they all are.
Macron excepted.
Joking too.
I can see how de Gaulle might be viewed as an icon in France, but to be honest, he lucked into it on account of A) WW2, B) he didn't have to lead his nation's forces in actual combat, C) the Allies' good graces, and D) he had several hundred miles of European real estate between him and Stalin. Yeah, de Gaulle's political skills were no doubt quite exceptional, and he definitely made the most of the hand fate dealt him, but morally he was as hollow as Bill Clinton. I mean, it's funny that he threatened Truman over Viet Nam in 1946, but in the 1960s he couldn't get out of Algeria fast enough. So much for logical consistency.

In the end, de Gaulle's success as a statesmen was predicated on fortunate geography and on Washington's good graces, and little more.

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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Countries have interests, not friends. It was in our interest to have the French as an ally in Europe after WWII. All else follows from that.
If Washington had wanted, the US could have put the screws to de Gaulle big time, and what could he have done: turn to Stalin for help? In that respect, he had few choices, so why four successive US presidents let his lying ass skate like that I still cannot fathom.
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  #49  
Old 19 Sep 17, 14:48
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A barometer to check against on the lefty meter- Put what we've seen so far up again History channels VN in HD -there's no comparison for me at this point but lot of hours to go. They might still sneak in a Barry Romo segment, then my hands go up.
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  #50  
Old 19 Sep 17, 15:58
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A comment from one of the American vets............"I think our generation was the last to believe most of what our government told us" I had not really realized that until he said it. You have to have been alive during those times also. Cuban Missle crisis, Russian tanks rolling into Prague to crush a free movement, Korea was barely over with the fresh realization that communists had no qualms about forcibly invading and controlling a country, Castro had just established communism in cuba. with all that it is not a real stretch to understand why many of us believed fighting in Vietnam to stop communism was needed. I think a lot of these "revisionist" historians tend to overlook that. I would give burns a c+ so far..........final grade? who knows.......
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  #51  
Old 19 Sep 17, 17:07
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  #52  
Old 19 Sep 17, 17:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
It ain't classified now, so what's the point?
The point is successful ones will not be declassified, if it would jeopardize sources and methods. So, an opinion based on open press never gets a full accounting.
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  #53  
Old 19 Sep 17, 17:50
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Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
The point is successful ones will not be declassified, if it would jeopardize sources and methods. So, an opinion based on open press never gets a full accounting.
That's why I work with WWII material, most of it has been cleared out. At one point I was planning to go to the National Archives in California to help sort out 14th Naval District documents that could be declassified, but I was persuaded to do a different job. Now that I'm retired from that one I might still go with Plan Alpha.
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  #54  
Old 19 Sep 17, 20:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
That's why I work with WWII material, most of it has been cleared out. At one point I was planning to go to the National Archives in California to help sort out 14th Naval District documents that could be declassified, but I was persuaded to do a different job. Now that I'm retired from that one I might still go with Plan Alpha.
Agree, look how long it took Ultra and Magic to be declassified. And, I suspect there are methods of decryption from those efforts that have not been declassified.
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  #55  
Old 19 Sep 17, 20:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
Agree, look how long it took Ultra and Magic to be declassified. And, I suspect there are methods of decryption from those efforts that have not been declassified.
I could reply with high confidence, but I like walking around loose.
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  #56  
Old 19 Sep 17, 23:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
The point is successful ones will not be declassified, if it would jeopardize sources and methods. So, an opinion based on open press never gets a full accounting.
My point is our intelligence bureaucracies have a long and storied record of training the very brightest and sending them into very dangerous situations to gather detailed data and develop indepth reports,
Which the scum in the Pentagon and Langley usually ignore for political expediency and to advance their careers.
It is easy to brush aside criticism of thier failure with the petty excuse that we are only told of the failures.
Those failures have been themselves swept under the rug, written in blood from Korea, to the Bay of Pigs, to the support of ruthless dictators in South America, Panama, So. Vietnam, to the training arming and funding of Afghanistan "freedom fighters" AKA the Taliban, to the failure to detect the 9/11 attacks and the WMD hard sell, just to name a few, I would pile on with the long winded story of the billions spent developing sophisticated submarines and equipment to tape Russian communications lines that lay on the bottom of Russian waters, while the Russian learned about it for 50K and feed us phony intelligence for years....
Just saying..
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  #57  
Old 20 Sep 17, 02:27
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Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
Which the scum in the Pentagon and Langley usually ignore for political expediency and to advance their careers.
Like Nhom Marrott, Laos and Operation Pocket Change.
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  #58  
Old 20 Sep 17, 02:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
I don't want to sidetrack the subject either, but I feel it is impossible to understand fully the complex relationships of WWII between western democracies and communist resistance groups opposing Nazi and Japanese forces, and the post war events that reshaped the political landscape.
Ho was just one of many we supported with arms, money, training and advisors who worked closely with partisan groups. In France, Greece, Turkey, and in the Middle East and China as well as in what was then French Indonesia, the main resistance to our enemies were communists rebels. So while they were politically aligned with ideology opposed to capitalism they were also fighting for their independence from Fascist and at the same time political powers that had before the war been friendly to western democracy and capitalism. Communist Worker organizations had been springing up in Europe before WWII, the fact that many had already developed Underground and subversive groups that could blend into the fabric of everyday life made them invaluable to allied intelligence agencies.
This made for some very odd relationships, and after the war, those governments that had in many cases been forced into exile during the war, wanted to reclaim their nation and put the US and Great Britain in an unprecedented and uncomfortable position. Either continue to support communist leaders who had been loyal allies to our cause during the war, or support the formerly legitimate political leaders who did little during the war, but now either promised to stand against the spread of Soviet influence, or as in the case of De Gualie, threaten to abandon the WWII allies or offer no resistance to Soviet desires.
It becomes even more complex in China where the US literally supported both Nationalist and Communist forces. Anyone who resisted Japan found support from the US.
Forces serving under Ho are accredited with saving approximately 250 US airman during WWII.

Good points. Thank you. I never considered looking at things this way but it does make sense with the way you explained it.
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  #59  
Old 20 Sep 17, 08:55
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Old 20 Sep 17, 09:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban hermit View Post
My point is our intelligence bureaucracies have a long and storied record of training the very brightest and sending them into very dangerous situations to gather detailed data and develop indepth reports,
Which the scum in the Pentagon and Langley usually ignore for political expediency and to advance their careers.
It is easy to brush aside criticism of thier failure with the petty excuse that we are only told of the failures.
Those failures have been themselves swept under the rug, written in blood from Korea, to the Bay of Pigs, to the support of ruthless dictators in South America, Panama, So. Vietnam, to the training arming and funding of Afghanistan "freedom fighters" AKA the Taliban, to the failure to detect the 9/11 attacks and the WMD hard sell, just to name a few, I would pile on with the long winded story of the billions spent developing sophisticated submarines and equipment to tape Russian communications lines that lay on the bottom of Russian waters, while the Russian learned about it for 50K and feed us phony intelligence for years....
Just saying..
The CIA and DoD are not independent agency.

Vietnam shattered the myth, not just that the government was always truthful, but that it would never demand of its young men that they fight and perhaps die to prolong a war that the politicians could not end in a politically convenient fashion.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/v...icle-1.3504827

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