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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Vietnam War

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Vietnam War The Battle for Vietnam. .

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  #151  
Old 27 Sep 17, 09:21
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Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
I think it will be.............sadly.
-----------------------------
When I was younger, much younger all I heard about was Kent State, My Lai and other things like that. I had the lefts point of view all during my younger years. Rolling Stone magazine was my bible when I was 13 - 17 years of age. But the reality is, the more Vets I came into contact with and researching and reading I came to a whole different point of view about VIet Nam and a lot of other things. Just keep pointing our errors or Bullshit Jeffdoorgunner the truth is out there if someone really takes the time and effort to find it. But people whom know the truth should always speak it and defend it. Some of "us" knucklehead civilians are listening.
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  #152  
Old 27 Sep 17, 09:46
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Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
...Burns did a hell of a good job of playing the outcry of Kent state....
For those of us in the States at that time and of that age, the shootings amounted to an atrocity.
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  #153  
Old 27 Sep 17, 09:56
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Burns described the Cambodian Incursion as 30,000 US troops, accompanied by 50,000 South Vietnamese troops. That is a lefty spin, at best. In fact, the South Vietnamese crossed the border in the Parrot's Beak region, with their American advisors, several days before at least some of the American units crossed (the 25th, for one) north of the Parrot's Beak. The same SVN units, a combined arms force of Rangers (BDQ) and armored cav (the 5th as I recall), had been in the same area without the advisors several weeks earlier.

It was disappointing, but not surprising, that there was no mention of the successful operation by the SVN units. Instead, all we get is how poor and corrupt was the SVN army.

I first read about Kent State in the Pacific Stars and Stripes while we were on a one day stand down in Cambodia. I remember thinking first why did the students, with guns pointing at them, assume they had no bullets? I suppose that at that point I was a little sensitive to people pointing guns at me and pulling the trigger.
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  #154  
Old 27 Sep 17, 10:11
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Originally Posted by III Corps View Post
For those of us in the States at that time and of that age, the shootings amounted to an atrocity.
---------------------
They should have reloaded and shot Crosby, Stills and Nash. Them bums ruined Neil's music.
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  #155  
Old 27 Sep 17, 11:04
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...Them bums ruined Neil's music....
Even today, when I hear that opening riff, I crank up the volume.
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  #156  
Old 27 Sep 17, 11:16
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Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
I think it will be.............sadly.
I saw it all on the PBS site, most episodes twice, and the last episode is quite sad as inevitably they are.

Overall my take is the Heroic Vietnamese people vs USA and their puppets. With the USA being lambs(the avg. GI) led by donkeys(Sr. Military and Govt office holders).

I am watching on Youtube Vietnam A Television History done in the early 80s. 660min. Then will do the Vietnam 10,000 Day War(about 13hrs) for more balance.

KB's Civil War has Shelby Foote to eloquently speak on behalf of the South. Made the South appear much better than what they were. The USA has no such person in this one.

Last edited by Felix C; 27 Sep 17 at 11:31..
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  #157  
Old 27 Sep 17, 11:54
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Originally Posted by III Corps View Post
For those of us in the States at that time and of that age, the shootings amounted to an atrocity.
I agree. However,with the violence being brought by the "peaceful" demonstrations.......I can see where at some place or time some very fearful National guard or police would snap.
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  #158  
Old 27 Sep 17, 12:26
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I did too but I wound up resuming over the weekend and stayed with it.

Tonight's episode was good with the coverage on the Kent State affair. While I'm sure I'll stay the course from here on out, I see I was right in the beginning in speculating this would all have a leftist slant. Actually I feel he's gone a little further left than I expected and I don't like "left" at all.

I hope with the younger generations this does not become the defining story of the whole affair for the future.
I'm so "right" that I probably make you look like a New Dealer, but clearly this episode went left. That being said, Burns & Co did very subtly suggest that the anti-war movement was 1) partially driven by foreign communists, 2) that every protest movement imaginable tried to piggy-back on the anti-war movement's coattails, thus rendering it something of a joke, and 3) that the more extreme elements like the Weathermen not only brought the anti-war movement into disrepute, but that they were pursuing a logical fallacy very similar to the VC's expectation that the RVN populace would rise up and support the Tet Offensive. Those critiques were subtle -- perhaps too subtle -- but they were in there too.

I'd also add, however, that the glorification of the anti-war movement isn't merely a "left" thing, but it's a generational thing. The '60s generation has spent the last half-century ramming their glory days down our throats. To hear the '60s generation tell it, they invented peace, they invented free love, they invented free speech, they invented recreational drugs, they invented political dissent, they invented cool music. Never has a generation taken more undue credit for stuff that had existed for millenia than has the '60s generation. I've been listening all my life to how cool and happening they were, and frankly, not only didn't I ever see it, I long ago grew resentful of their unwarranted and endless self-aggrandizement, so it's no surprise to me that Burns & Co -- given their vintage -- would celebrate the anti-war movement and the counterculture like they actually did something useful, or even original. By and large they were hacks: self-satisfied and self-indulgent hacks -- evidenced by the immediate dissolution of the counterculture once US involvement in Viet Nam came to an end. The '70s, the "Me Generation," was a pretty clear repudiation of the '60s crap. Like a lot of counterculture's fans, Hunter Thompson made the mistake of thinking that loud street protests would engender a revolution in people's minds. He failed to recognize that it was all predicated on middle class kids' desire to not hazard their precious hides in places like Viet Nam, and that once the war ended, so too would the "good vibes."
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  #159  
Old 27 Sep 17, 14:57
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I was right about My Lai~ didn't know how right I would be- Couple points- the protests and and part about Nixon going on live TV for his asking of unity and how this was affecting negotiations and his instant soaring approval rating- Did that really happen guys? Was that what brought the north to the table?

I was talking with my mom last night, her 73rd birthday and she's watching it at the same time- she hated Nixon and started cussing at the TV like it was still 1969 or something- She grew up in DC and was exposed to all the political stuff but of course I wasn't a baby anymore by then either, I was in school and kind of grew up with Nam vets around us and my parents, well everyone had family that was either there or back home or dead by that time so as a kid, the war effected everyone in some way.

I didn't see any mention of how many people supported Kent State incident and the stories of how a lot of Americans wished they had shot many more of them, not one line about that. I know my grandma, who was a Rosie in WW2 and built airplanes in Michigan said she wished they had more ammo - She's 96 next month and she'll let you have it when it comes to patriotism- so that's where I get it, it comes honest.
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  #160  
Old 27 Sep 17, 15:35
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
I'm so "right" that I probably make you look like a New Dealer, but clearly this episode went left. That being said, Burns & Co did very subtly suggest that the anti-war movement was 1) partially driven by foreign communists, 2) that every protest movement imaginable tried to piggy-back on the anti-war movement's coattails, thus rendering it something of a joke, and 3) that the more extreme elements like the Weathermen not only brought the anti-war movement into disrepute, but that they were pursuing a logical fallacy very similar to the VC's expectation that the RVN populace would rise up and support the Tet Offensive. Those critiques were subtle -- perhaps too subtle -- but they were in there too.

I'd also add, however, that the glorification of the anti-war movement isn't merely a "left" thing, but it's a generational thing. The '60s generation has spent the last half-century ramming their glory days down our throats. To hear the '60s generation tell it, they invented peace, they invented free love, they invented free speech, they invented recreational drugs, they invented political dissent, they invented cool music. Never has a generation taken more undue credit for stuff that had existed for millenia than has the '60s generation. I've been listening all my life to how cool and happening they were, and frankly, not only didn't I ever see it, I long ago grew resentful of their unwarranted and endless self-aggrandizement, so it's no surprise to me that Burns & Co -- given their vintage -- would celebrate the anti-war movement and the counterculture like they actually did something useful, or even original. By and large they were hacks: self-satisfied and self-indulgent hacks -- evidenced by the immediate dissolution of the counterculture once US involvement in Viet Nam came to an end. The '70s, the "Me Generation," was a pretty clear repudiation of the '60s crap. Like a lot of counterculture's fans, Hunter Thompson made the mistake of thinking that loud street protests would engender a revolution in people's minds. He failed to recognize that it was all predicated on middle class kids' desire to not hazard their precious hides in places like Viet Nam, and that once the war ended, so too would the "good vibes."
Like that guy who fled to Canada............"the bravest thing I ever did"......I am sure of that........
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  #161  
Old 27 Sep 17, 18:28
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I found this a good documentry in regards the "grunts' but he seem to have missed out the "Brown water navy" and the USAF loses both in fighters and large (B52) bombers and what happend to the crews...other than 10 secs of L/C McCain.....I was in the RCAF at the time in Europe and a lot of us expected "to go"....in fact my whole squadron ( bar one) said we would go...now this was in '66 before "the truths" started to come out.....I remenber sitting in a French ami's bar in Charleville one night and a bunch of "zoomies" from Bitburg came in one night celebrating they " were off to see the elephant".......after a few drinks my French ami (FFL 2 REP) bought them a round and wished them luck but said words to the effect "Your government will abandon you, just like ours (France) abandoned us" referring to France and Indo China....I often wonder how many of those young guys made it back to the US.......A sad time but we ( all of us ) never seem to learn from history especially the guy leading the pack right now who has never served a day, yet has a big mouth.......

An old guy....54/78 Airforce and army and seen the elephant.....

to all who went and to the ones who all came back....
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  #162  
Old 27 Sep 17, 19:15
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Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
So this is not factual?
No it is not.

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All these years including prior to the Internet the above is what I read.
Well perhaps you would want to trace the origin of what you read? Like an eyewitness account or something?
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  #163  
Old 27 Sep 17, 20:35
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No it is not.



Well perhaps you would want to trace the origin of what you read? Like an eyewitness account or something?
Burden is on you to disprove an item which has been mentioned for 40+ years.
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  #164  
Old 27 Sep 17, 20:40
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I gave you an eyewitness account of Chinese foot solders fighting alongside of NVA troops against US Marines in Vietnam Sir.That was not good enough for you Altus, so you said.
I also gave you Altus an eyewitness account of NVA troops using indigenous non combatant old men,women and children as human shields(hiding behind those poor souls)as the NVA cowards attacked our night defense perimeter in north Quang Tri province Sir, still not good enough for you Altus. So come off that eyewitness bull $hit Altus.I will travel anywhere you want Sir providing someone picks up the price of my ticket,and testify to what I seen with my own eyes.End of story.
I'm sure your quite happy with Ken Burn's rendition of the whole fu<king mess.
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  #165  
Old 27 Sep 17, 20:54
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Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post
Like that guy who fled to Canada............"the bravest thing I ever did"......I am sure of that........
What a Phony, I hope he likes himself in the mirror every morning and keeps telling himself that, as polonius said, " to thine own self be true"
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