HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Weapons of War

Notices and Announcements

Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 20 Aug 17, 14:21
82redleg's Avatar
82redleg 82redleg is offline
First Sergeant
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Living Room
Posts: 285
82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
I think the Cav comes in one flavor, the 1st Cav Division. They should be the follow on after the 82nd and Rangers secure the area to include airfields to bring in the armor. 1st Armor or mechanized Infantry 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th follow on and expand the operational area. The 82nd should remain light, flexible, and fast in my opinion.
Is this a proposal? Its certainly not how things are today.

First, everyone please stop thinking in divisions- divisions are simply headquarters, to which BCTs and brigades are attached as required. Yes, we failed miserably to break the links by retaining divisional patches, but the only difference in the relationship between 1st BCT/1st CAV and 3rd CAV (SBCT) is the patch that they wear- nothing meaningful.

I think that BG(R) Was de Czege's ideas about 3 kinds of infantry and the gap in the middle, written in Infantry Magazine in ~1986, are still pretty valid.

"Light infantry" does rapid deployment, forced entry, and extremely restrictive terrain. The US Army today (with 15 active IBCTs, or nearly 1/2 the active force structure, and a greater percentage in the reserves) is skewed toward this type of force, and doesn't even do it very well (arguably, our IBCTs not really "light infantry" but a very light version of "line infantry")

"Armored infantry" is the in-house infantry of armored units, designed to support tanks at the tactical level. The US Army today (with 9, soon to be 10, ABCTs) is similarly skewed toward this type of force. The structure is sound, but the ABCTs have too few infantry companies- the old balanced structure with 2 mech companies and 2 tank companies in each combined arms battalion was better.

"Line infantry" is the go-to force. Supported by tanks, it can operate in open terrain, but can still operate in all except the most restricted terrain. It needs mobility, preferably protected mobility, along with the capability to carry the extra tools that it needs to do infantry tasks. The current US SBCTs are a fairly decent organization, although they lack "tanks" (armored, direct fire support vehicles) in their structure. The older structure, with an MGS platoon in each rifle company was better in this regard, although I didn't like the anemic platoons (4 vehicles per platoon would have been better; a tank company in each battalion would have been even better, IMO). "Line infantry" should be somewhere between 2/3s and 3/4s of the force (in the US Army of WW2, it was nearly 80% of the infantry and armor battalions), but with only 7 active and 2 ARNG SBCTs, the US force is skewed toward heavy and light, creating a gap in the middle. The other issue that I have with SBCTs is that they are equipment-focused on the Stryker vehicle. In my mind, an SBCT organization with a 1-1 replacement of ICVs with Bradleys and MGS with M1s would be an effective "line infantry" organization; as would a 1-for-1 swap of ICVs with M113s and MGS with M60s (although both M60 and M113 are getting long in the tooth).

Cavalry is something totally different- it does reconnaissance and security operations. Cavalry can certainly share some equipment with infantry, but it requires a different structure to accomplish those operations.

Now we get to what light forces, particularly airborne forces, need. They don't need tank-killing capability- they have ATGMs and aviation for that. What they need is the ability to move under indirect and direct fire. the description provided by TacCovert4 is fairly adequate. I make a separate ATGM variant for the current ATGM units, and field a direct fire support variant (maybe 40mm autocannon, 76mm autocannon, or even an 81m breach-loading mortar) to provide the direct fire support to the infantry. Its got to be a useful HE thrower.

The balance of the weapons company in each infantry battalion isn't too bad, but HMMWVs are a poor choice, and .50cal and MK19s lack the HE capability required to do the range of missions. If we replace that force with a light armored vehicle, the capability of the battalion will be significantly improved.

With the infantry weapons company capable of delivering a useful HE, we can provide a company in the BCT (probably in the cavalry squadron) with real light tanks that can provide a little more oomph to a counterattack, or block a primary avenue of approach. If you make it an oversized company (say, 6 platoons) then you can task organize a platoon to each battalion and still have a useful force with the cavalry squadron as a counter-reconnaissance force. A company with 6 platoons x 4 vehicles with 4 crew per vehicle would be 96 crewmen in the company- I'm sure the entire company would come out to less than 120 men.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 20 Aug 17, 15:35
Mountain Man's Avatar
Mountain Man Mountain Man is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Rocky Mts, USA
Posts: 68,815
Mountain Man has disabled reputation
All over the Middle East, we are being defeated by 4thGen forces who do not field armor or even AFV's.

The love of hi-tech, heavy weaponry is the death knell of America's capabilities, given that we no longer expect to fight a classical armor Amrmageddon.

BTW - for those decrying the lack of stopping power for the venerable .50 cal,
there is a company manufacturing "monolithic" .50 call ammo". This ammo is solid brass and will shred most anything including concrete walls. Think Barret MG!
__________________
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 20 Aug 17, 17:45
Merkava188's Avatar
Merkava188 Merkava188 is offline
Major
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Doug Williams
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sierra Vista
Posts: 910
Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99]
There still may be more classic armored type engagement in the future. Either in Europe, Africa, and very likely in Korea, and maybe in Venezuela.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 20 Aug 17, 19:56
101combatvet's Avatar
101combatvet 101combatvet is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shooter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC, Chesapeake Bay or Lima
Posts: 15,745
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Of course, but at the exact moment not likely.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
There still may be more classic armored type engagement in the future. Either in Europe, Africa, and very likely in Korea, and maybe in Venezuela.
__________________
My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 20 Aug 17, 20:00
TacCovert4's Avatar
TacCovert4 TacCovert4 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Nick
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 14,584
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
There still may be more classic armored type engagement in the future. Either in Europe, Africa, and very likely in Korea, and maybe in Venezuela.
And I think that realistically the area for growth and innovation is in the light armor segment. MBTs have reached a point where they're basically hauling around naval artillery for main guns, and need heavy cruiser armor to withstand hits. They're not slow anymore like the heavy tanks of WW2, but they're difficult to maneuver in any restrictive terrain on a 3rd world country. In the desert they can avoid pitfalls, but in say central America or the South American Highlands they would be stuck with roads that simply cannot withstand the punishment of MBTs and the terrain makes crossing rivers and such difficult otherwise.
__________________
Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 20 Aug 17, 20:09
TacCovert4's Avatar
TacCovert4 TacCovert4 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Nick
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 14,584
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] TacCovert4 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
@82redleg

I don't think that a 76mm, or possibly even a 40mm gun would be realistic on something that's supposed to be light enough to be airdrop compatible. 20, maybe 25mm tops.

@101

Remember, the Humvee is being replaced with the very not light JLTV. With that in mind an armored vehicle in the same weight class isn't unreasonable. One other thing is that to bring in the cavalry, you absolutely have to have an airfield or bring them in over land. The ability to deploy armored assets against rear echelon troops before the frontline armored forces of the enemy can be redeployed to deal with the airborne assault can be a major bit.

My thought is that in a bridge too far situation Airborne with organic protected assets can be more powerful and hold out longer. Plus mobile anti-vehicular/tank assets are much more useful than non-mobile ATGMs on foot when dealing with enemy mobile assets in force. And the way to suppress ATGMs is with airburst artillery and machine guns. Infantry borne assets have to be dug in or they get shredded. Assets behind armor can fight, even if at reduced effectiveness, while under fire. I'd argue that in this case the Russians are right.....Airborne needs to be a combined arms force that can also jump, rather than parachutists with guns.
__________________
Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 20 Aug 17, 20:14
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is online now
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 26,946
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Perhaps a 76mm low pressure (recoilless rifle) would be suitable? The BMP1 used one and didn't the PT76? The Soviets did move away from it to an autocannon/missile combination.

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 20 Aug 17, 20:25
101combatvet's Avatar
101combatvet 101combatvet is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shooter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC, Chesapeake Bay or Lima
Posts: 15,745
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
You always have an airfield in mind when planning the insertion, if it isn't there you build it. I can't think of any missions since Urgent Fury that we didn't have an airfield in the plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post

@101

Remember, the Humvee is being replaced with the very not light JLTV. With that in mind an armored vehicle in the same weight class isn't unreasonable. One other thing is that to bring in the cavalry, you absolutely have to have an airfield or bring them in over land. The ability to deploy armored assets against rear echelon troops before the frontline armored forces of the enemy can be redeployed to deal with the airborne assault can be a major bit.

My thought is that in a bridge too far situation Airborne with organic protected assets can be more powerful and hold out longer. Plus mobile anti-vehicular/tank assets are much more useful than non-mobile ATGMs on foot when dealing with enemy mobile assets in force. And the way to suppress ATGMs is with airburst artillery and machine guns. Infantry borne assets have to be dug in or they get shredded. Assets behind armor can fight, even if at reduced effectiveness, while under fire. I'd argue that in this case the Russians are right.....Airborne needs to be a combined arms force that can also jump, rather than parachutists with guns.
__________________
My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 20 Aug 17, 20:28
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is online now
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 26,946
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Perhaps we could fund some Motor Infantry on trucks? They could get a larger squad from the start and carry more gear on the trucks. The trucks would be part of the Infantry Company but there would be a Motor Pool at Battalion level for maintenance and at Brigade level to handle more complicated maintenance/repairs. I have that article in storage but it is not readily accessible. I still remember the ROAD series of Infantry Divisions.

Don't take this personally but some of us have been around long enough to be used to thinking of Divisions as a fighting unit and who can tell when the next paradigm shift is coming to make them "relevant" again? That Rumsfeld should burn in Hades for what he did.

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 20 Aug 17, 20:29
101combatvet's Avatar
101combatvet 101combatvet is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shooter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC, Chesapeake Bay or Lima
Posts: 15,745
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]




Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Perhaps a 76mm low pressure (recoilless rifle) would be suitable? The BMP1 used one and didn't the PT76? The Soviets did move away from it to an autocannon/missile combination.

Pruitt
__________________
My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #41  
Old 25 Aug 17, 19:38
Merkava188's Avatar
Merkava188 Merkava188 is offline
Major
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Doug Williams
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sierra Vista
Posts: 910
Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99]
If we're going to look at light tanks than let's look at the M8 Buford armed with a 120mm main gun.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 25 Aug 17, 21:08
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is online now
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 26,946
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Instead we can mount the Cadillac Stingray turret on the Buford chassis. The 105 will do fine as a main gun. The M8 Buford with a 120mm main gun would be another Sheridan.

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 25 Aug 17, 22:55
82redleg's Avatar
82redleg 82redleg is offline
First Sergeant
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Living Room
Posts: 285
82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
If we're going to look at light tanks than let's look at the M8 Buford armed with a 120mm main gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Instead we can mount the Cadillac Stingray turret on the Buford chassis. The 105 will do fine as a main gun. The M8 Buford with a 120mm main gun would be another Sheridan.

Pruitt
Both the 120mm and the 105m are optimized for tank-killing (or at least defeating armor), and that's not what we need. We need something with the capability to move under machine gun and mortar fire, and destroy dug in infantry. A breach-loading mortar or something related to the 165mm on the old CEV would be better- big HE punch, with some value against light armor, not primarily for defeating heavy armor. If there's heavy armor there, the airborne shouldn't be.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 26 Aug 17, 00:34
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is online now
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 26,946
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
There are literally dozens of different rounds for the 105 main gun. They are not all antiarmor. The round is smaller so they can fit more of them in the tank and they are lighter to manhandle. A 120 breechloading mortar could be shoe horned onto a Bradley and it might even fit in a C-130. I don't see Armor Branch going for anything smaller than a 105 on a "tank". Now you might have a chance if you call the vehicle an Assault Gun.

I have been a member of the US Cavalry and Armor Association since 1983.

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 26 Aug 17, 08:01
82redleg's Avatar
82redleg 82redleg is offline
First Sergeant
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fort Living Room
Posts: 285
82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99] 82redleg is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
There are literally dozens of different rounds for the 105 main gun. They are not all antiarmor. The round is smaller so they can fit more of them in the tank and they are lighter to manhandle. A 120 breechloading mortar could be shoe horned onto a Bradley and it might even fit in a C-130. I don't see Armor Branch going for anything smaller than a 105 on a "tank". Now you might have a chance if you call the vehicle an Assault Gun.

I have been a member of the US Cavalry and Armor Association since 1983.

Pruitt
I know that there is a variety of ammunition, but the 105mm M68 gun is optimized for anti-armor (long tube, high velocity, etc), with other considerations being secondary.

You've pointed out the problem- this is pure branch parochialism and rice bowls. Armor Branch wants tanks, even if that isn't what the mission requires.

What the mission requires is not tank killing- we already have ATGMs for that, and if there are tanks there, the airborne shouldn't be going anyway (see Market-Garden, among others). What the mission requires is killing light armor, and direct fire support- there are better (and cheaper) ways to kill dug-in troops than with an ATGM, especially if you can maneuver against them with armored mobility. What we're talking about here is how to get that armored, mobile direct fire support into action with rapidly deployed airborne troops.

Cavalry is something different- recon and security missions. They're conflated because Armor Branch is the proponent for both (recon/security and mobile, armored, direct fire support) missions, and does neither particularly well because Armor Branch treats both capabilities as secondary to what they see as their main effort- leading maneuver.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:33.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.