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  #16  
Old 08 Jul 17, 21:25
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They helocasted from a UH-1 on the invasion going in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Ever check into Marine Recon? They wear Jump Wings and jump. One of the few things I thought accurate about Clint Eastwood's 'Heartbreak Ridge' was how the Platoon jumped from a Helicopter and got into inflatable rafts to motor to the beach. I would have preferred an Air Assault but the Marines were using this movie as a recruiting lure. I was more impressed with Rihanna filling out a Navy shirt though in a different movie.

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  #17  
Old 08 Jul 17, 22:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
They helocasted from a UH-1 on the invasion going in.
Strange, I remember them doing a jump from a CH53. Maybe it was in another part of the movie. Force Recon does use Parachutes though. I am temporarily changing my Avatar to show the Forecon insignia. Maybe one day I will figure out how to post images here?

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  #18  
Old 09 Jul 17, 00:12
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I believe that was a training jump at Pendleton.

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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Strange, I remember them doing a jump from a CH53. Maybe it was in another part of the movie. Force Recon does use Parachutes though. I am temporarily changing my Avatar to show the Forecon insignia. Maybe one day I will figure out how to post images here?

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  #19  
Old 09 Jul 17, 09:21
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It was tried once and failed.
Airborne can't swim?
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  #20  
Old 09 Jul 17, 09:40
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Controlled water jumps can be fun, the only time you get to jump in shorts, a t-shirt, and sneakers.

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Airborne can't swim?
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  #21  
Old 19 Aug 17, 18:25
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Does what replacement plans the Marines have for the LAV-25?
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Old 19 Aug 17, 18:39
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The Marines are a little hand tied. So far the vehicles looked at are heavier and harder to fit into Strategic Transports. They may be stuck with the LAV 25 for a while.

I thought the original purpose of the LAV 25 was to provide mobility to Marines in the beachhead, not provide a minitank.

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  #23  
Old 19 Aug 17, 20:43
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Honestly the Marines need to get back to their roots. Those being two things principally:

1) Embassy Security and engaging in small wars generally unsupported by the rest of the military. Things like the Haiti operations, some of the Central American stuff, etc. Counterinsurgency and re-establishing local governance.

2) Rapid mobile seaborne assault force in major wars. With a specialty on Port and Beach assaults. But generally a full Battalion to Corps level scalable organizational package that you can put onto a problem and they will deal with it. Like a permanent Kampfgruppe with its own engineers, air support, and everything needed to accomplish a task that you can put onto an operation that needs something bigger than a Ranger Battalion with minimal support, but smaller than deploying the Army and Air Force.

With that in mind here's what I would do along the lines of armor as it relates to the Marines:

1) Ditch the Abrams Tanks. They're a logistical nightmare. There are plenty of ways to deal with enemy MBTs, and tank battalions are both too small to deal with enemy armored divisions solo, while being so heavy for the support they provide against smaller numbers of tanks. Honestly they're practically "Infantry Tanks" and that idea died in 1942. If you're encountering spotty enemy tank resistance, light vehicles, aircraft, and man portable ATGMs can handle it. If you're encountering the Republican Guard Medina Division, then you probably did something wrong and that's something where you use heavy applications of CAS and you call in the actual Armored Divisions.

2) The LAV 25 replacement be designed to be the Marines' "Bradley" with the following capabilities:

-Amphibious, not necessarily beach ops, but definitely lakes, rivers and the like.
-Be designed around carrying a fire team (4 Dismounts) instead of 6 or 8 men. Therefore a Light Armored Platoon would consist of 3 LAVs carrying a squad of dismounts.
-Be helicopter transportable (External lift on a CH53).
-Run an ATGM as standard equipment on the primary model
-Run a functional autocannon on the primary model (having fewer dismounts should allow for a lighter and shorter but still well armored vehicle), I'd like to see something that can rip up even older MBTs, like a 40mm Bushmaster.
-Have a fire support model, either rockets, traditional mortar carrier, or a turreted mortar (I personally like the latter).
-Armor should be sufficient but not overly heavy. We are building a Light Armored Vehicle, with the first word being Light. It won't stop everything from every angle. Armor should be planned around likely threats, Enemy IFV autocannons, Enemy ATGMs/LAAWs, Mines/IEDs.
-Have an engineer model, and start phasing out older vehicles for it.
-I'm not wedded to tracks or wheels, whichever provides the best all-round maneuverability.

3) The replacement for the AAV is somewhat opposite. It needs to run a full squad internally. I'd go with a reduction on the requirements for weaponry to MGs and an autocannon, maybe go with a 25mm whereas the LAV runs a 40mm. The point of an AAV is to get the troops to the beach under cover of NGFS and Airpower. It's a fully amphibious APC. The LAV is an IFV. Once ashore the LAV is providing infantry support and occasionally operating as cavalry when the opportunity arises. The AAV is providing battle taxi service and occasionally light support to the infantry. Wheels or tracks again would depend on maneuverability, though with beach ops in mind tracks really do make more sense here.

With that armor scheme you have the firepower to deal with most threats, the flexibility to operate in most conditions, and the lightweight to maximize space usage onboard ships and/or aircraft to accelerate insertion of a MEU, MEB, or MEF into a combat zone.
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  #24  
Old 19 Aug 17, 21:07
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I agree! The biggest problem with the Marines is that they want to broaden their capabilities which just weakens them. The Navy and Air Force on a smaller scale have been trying the same with limited sucess. Some **** you just need to leave to the professionals like the Army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Honestly the Marines need to get back to their roots. Those being two things principally:

1) Embassy Security and engaging in small wars generally unsupported by the rest of the military. Things like the Haiti operations, some of the Central American stuff, etc. Counterinsurgency and re-establishing local governance.

2) Rapid mobile seaborne assault force in major wars. With a specialty on Port and Beach assaults. But generally a full Battalion to Corps level scalable organizational package that you can put onto a problem and they will deal with it. Like a permanent Kampfgruppe with its own engineers, air support, and everything needed to accomplish a task that you can put onto an operation that needs something bigger than a Ranger Battalion with minimal support, but smaller than deploying the Army and Air Force.

With that in mind here's what I would do along the lines of armor as it relates to the Marines:

1) Ditch the Abrams Tanks. They're a logistical nightmare. There are plenty of ways to deal with enemy MBTs, and tank battalions are both too small to deal with enemy armored divisions solo, while being so heavy for the support they provide against smaller numbers of tanks. Honestly they're practically "Infantry Tanks" and that idea died in 1942. If you're encountering spotty enemy tank resistance, light vehicles, aircraft, and man portable ATGMs can handle it. If you're encountering the Republican Guard Medina Division, then you probably did something wrong and that's something where you use heavy applications of CAS and you call in the actual Armored Divisions.

2) The LAV 25 replacement be designed to be the Marines' "Bradley" with the following capabilities:

-Amphibious, not necessarily beach ops, but definitely lakes, rivers and the like.
-Be designed around carrying a fire team (4 Dismounts) instead of 6 or 8 men. Therefore a Light Armored Platoon would consist of 3 LAVs carrying a squad of dismounts.
-Be helicopter transportable (External lift on a CH53).
-Run an ATGM as standard equipment on the primary model
-Run a functional autocannon on the primary model (having fewer dismounts should allow for a lighter and shorter but still well armored vehicle), I'd like to see something that can rip up even older MBTs, like a 40mm Bushmaster.
-Have a fire support model, either rockets, traditional mortar carrier, or a turreted mortar (I personally like the latter).
-Armor should be sufficient but not overly heavy. We are building a Light Armored Vehicle, with the first word being Light. It won't stop everything from every angle. Armor should be planned around likely threats, Enemy IFV autocannons, Enemy ATGMs/LAAWs, Mines/IEDs.
-Have an engineer model, and start phasing out older vehicles for it.
-I'm not wedded to tracks or wheels, whichever provides the best all-round maneuverability.

3) The replacement for the AAV is somewhat opposite. It needs to run a full squad internally. I'd go with a reduction on the requirements for weaponry to MGs and an autocannon, maybe go with a 25mm whereas the LAV runs a 40mm. The point of an AAV is to get the troops to the beach under cover of NGFS and Airpower. It's a fully amphibious APC. The LAV is an IFV. Once ashore the LAV is providing infantry support and occasionally operating as cavalry when the opportunity arises. The AAV is providing battle taxi service and occasionally light support to the infantry. Wheels or tracks again would depend on maneuverability, though with beach ops in mind tracks really do make more sense here.

With that armor scheme you have the firepower to deal with most threats, the flexibility to operate in most conditions, and the lightweight to maximize space usage onboard ships and/or aircraft to accelerate insertion of a MEU, MEB, or MEF into a combat zone.
__________________
My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
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-2 Commando Jumpmaster
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  #25  
Old 19 Aug 17, 21:10
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  #26  
Old 20 Aug 17, 05:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
I agree! The biggest problem with the Marines is that they want to broaden their capabilities which just weakens them. The Navy and Air Force on a smaller scale have been trying the same with limited sucess. Some **** you just need to leave to the professionals like the Army.
I agree that large-scale occupations and large-scale (Corps and Army level) combat are best left to the Army.

The Corps needs to be focusing on counterinsurgency, becoming experts in the small to moderate scale occupational/COIN realm. In a major war the Corps should be assault troops. Get the beachhead, then turn the general advance inland to the Army while they regroup to do a heliborne assault on the flanks or an opposed river crossing farther along. Being in the general advance is a waste of resources for a specialized force like the Marines. Get to a city that you need reduced (Fallujah for instance), turn the op over to the Marines while the Army pushes on in open country.

Pound for pound, only the specialized divisions of the Army are comparable (82nd, 101st, 10th, etc). Just like the specialized divisions, the Corps does not, will not be a draftee pool, they only accept volunteers. You don't put specialist troops in a general advance when you can help it, you put them as breakthrough troops, spearhead troops, or hold them for their specialized role.

If a large war kicked off, the progression should be 82nd deploys as QRF. Marines deploy to replace 82nd as a heavier combined arms force with more firepower and staying power and 82nd rotates to being reserve. As the rest of the Army and Air Force get to their forward staging points and then move up, the Marines rotate out to being reserve line. Once offensive operations begin, the Marines and the Airborne are deployed as needed to seize key elements, breach natural or man-made obstacles that are slowing the advance, or reduce enemy pockets while the main army continues to move forward.

Gulf War I was a good example. The Marines worked with the allied powers to deal with Kuwait and to threaten Iraq so that it wasted part of its forces deployed against a possible amphibious assault. The Army's Armored forces then annihilated their Iraqi counterparts in the open.

Anyway, back to the OP:

I think that the 82nd needs light armor. I don't think the LAV25 is the answer, but I think that the answer is out there or within the realm of the possible. A light cannon/missile armed vehicle to provide fire support that can be jumped in alongside an airborne unit. I'd say something along the lines of a battalion at the divisional level that can be frapped out as needed based on mission. Whether it be a platoon deployed on a battalion level op in close terrain as primarily infantry support....or deploying the battalion itself as an independent unit as a way to drop light armored cavalry behind the enemy defenses.
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Old 20 Aug 17, 09:45
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I think the Cav comes in one flavor, the 1st Cav Division. They should be the follow on after the 82nd and Rangers secure the area to include airfields to bring in the armor. 1st Armor or mechanized Infantry 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th follow on and expand the operational area. The 82nd should remain light, flexible, and fast in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post

Anyway, back to the OP:

I think that the 82nd needs light armor. I don't think the LAV25 is the answer, but I think that the answer is out there or within the realm of the possible. A light cannon/missile armed vehicle to provide fire support that can be jumped in alongside an airborne unit. I'd say something along the lines of a battalion at the divisional level that can be frapped out as needed based on mission. Whether it be a platoon deployed on a battalion level op in close terrain as primarily infantry support....or deploying the battalion itself as an independent unit as a way to drop light armored cavalry behind the enemy defenses.
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My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
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  #28  
Old 20 Aug 17, 10:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
I think the Cav comes in one flavor, the 1st Cav Division. They should be the follow on after the 82nd and Rangers secure the area to include airfields to bring in the armor. 1st Armor or mechanized Infantry 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th follow on and expand the operational area. The 82nd should remain light, flexible, and fast in my opinion.
I don't think that adding in a small unit of light armor would overly tax the 82nd's speed of deployment. You're looking at the use of say 8 C17 sorties to move ALL of it about, and I'd argue that a single C17 would need to be added to each Battalion level drop sortie in order to deploy my hypothetical platoon.

The issue with the 82nd in a combat jump is the same as it was in WW2. They're excellent, highly trained troops that arrive on the battlefield very quickly. And once on the battlefield they have only the heavy weapons that they can cart around on their backs and they move at a ground speed of about 2mph, maybe 3.

What I'm thinking about is a 4x4, at most 6x6 (and small by those standards) Light Armored Vehicle. Emphasis on Light Armored (Not Infantry Fighting or Personnel Carrier). They'd have space in the back for a scout team or a pair of litters. Though I'd anticipate that they'd really be dropping in with jerry cans of fuel, cases of MREs and water, and spare ammo or even some of the infantry's heavy weapons in their compartments.

Armor would be Light, emphasis light. 14.5mm protection in the frontal arc, 7.62 AP protection in the rear arc, maybe, maybe ERA over key components. You want them small and light enough to jump in, with 3 per C17.

Two variants. Command/Communications vehicle: 3 Crew, 40mm/.50cal turret with 7.62mm commander's gun. Radios that can be used by the platoon or be used as a command vehicle for the formation (hookups in back for battalion command to use for power/antennas/uplinks). Fighting Vehicle: 2 Crew, 20mm/ATGM turret with 3 reloads for access by gunner/commander. Gives the infantry something with more punch than their platoon MGs, and gives them an ATGM that can weather MG fires to engage targets in support.

The key is to stay true to the LIGHT bit, and not let mission creep turn it into Stryker. It's not an IFV, it's not an APC. It's basically there to shred soft skins and bolster the infantry against IFVs and Tanks until heavier formations can catch up or be flown in.
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  #29  
Old 20 Aug 17, 11:24
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Again, this is crossing into someone else's lane. The 82nd has anti-armor weapons, if they need more they have avaition assests that can deal with the problem. If intel ID's an armor threat then you add armor as needed, not likely an issue for most current scenarios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
I don't think that adding in a small unit of light armor would overly tax the 82nd's speed of deployment. You're looking at the use of say 8 C17 sorties to move ALL of it about, and I'd argue that a single C17 would need to be added to each Battalion level drop sortie in order to deploy my hypothetical platoon.

The issue with the 82nd in a combat jump is the same as it was in WW2. They're excellent, highly trained troops that arrive on the battlefield very quickly. And once on the battlefield they have only the heavy weapons that they can cart around on their backs and they move at a ground speed of about 2mph, maybe 3.

What I'm thinking about is a 4x4, at most 6x6 (and small by those standards) Light Armored Vehicle. Emphasis on Light Armored (Not Infantry Fighting or Personnel Carrier). They'd have space in the back for a scout team or a pair of litters. Though I'd anticipate that they'd really be dropping in with jerry cans of fuel, cases of MREs and water, and spare ammo or even some of the infantry's heavy weapons in their compartments.

Armor would be Light, emphasis light. 14.5mm protection in the frontal arc, 7.62 AP protection in the rear arc, maybe, maybe ERA over key components. You want them small and light enough to jump in, with 3 per C17.

Two variants. Command/Communications vehicle: 3 Crew, 40mm/.50cal turret with 7.62mm commander's gun. Radios that can be used by the platoon or be used as a command vehicle for the formation (hookups in back for battalion command to use for power/antennas/uplinks). Fighting Vehicle: 2 Crew, 20mm/ATGM turret with 3 reloads for access by gunner/commander. Gives the infantry something with more punch than their platoon MGs, and gives them an ATGM that can weather MG fires to engage targets in support.

The key is to stay true to the LIGHT bit, and not let mission creep turn it into Stryker. It's not an IFV, it's not an APC. It's basically there to shred soft skins and bolster the infantry against IFVs and Tanks until heavier formations can catch up or be flown in.
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  #30  
Old 20 Aug 17, 13:51
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Why not add a small, light armor unit to the 101st Airborne (Air Assault)?

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